[md_]

I'm reminded of how long it took Garmin to add touchscreens to their sports watches, and how controversial it was in the user community.

If you want to check your heart-rate while sitting at your desk, scrolling through the touchscreen on an Apple Watch is great. But if you're wearing gloves while skiing, or your hands are covered in mud and sweat during a trail run, a touchscreen is not a great option.

Garmin's modern sport line now has optional touchscreens, but all major functionality is still accessible via physical controls alone. Their lifestyle models are touchscreen-first, though, which really demonstrates the different requirements for different use-cases. I suspect the same is true in the camera world.

[bayindirh]

When you're doing street photography, or any photography with a DSLR/Mirrorless, you don't look at the controls at any given moment.

You see a potential subject, you "arm" the camera via its power switch instinctively.

Your finger goes to front/back dial and you set your parameters depending on the mode, sometimes only paying attention to numbers on the screen or top LCD or viewfinder.

You're tracking your subject now. If you need, you select the AF point blindly via the touchscreen (which is off and is a touchpad if you're looking via viewfinder), and fine tune it via the joystick if you need one.

Looks good, half-press, AF Locks. You release the shutter and camera clicks. It's done.

You turn off your camera blindly and continue walking.

[cyberax]

> When you're doing street photography, or any photography with a DSLR/Mirrorless, you don't look at the controls at any given moment.

Why? You're looking at the screen to track the target anyway. Show the controls there, including focus points and maybe "exposure" settings.

And with the computational photography, you can just take multiple pictures and synthesize various "exposure times" later. And it'll likely be better than what you set blindly, hoping to get the right combination.

[verandaguy]

    > Why? You're looking at the screen to track the target anyway

Not necessarily. You might be looking through the viewfinder, which will almost always have better contrast in bright sunlight than even a sunlight-readable screen; and even so, if you're using the display, fumbling through a touchscreen interface will always be slower than doing the same with a haptic interface you're used to.

    > And with the computational photography, you can just take multiple pictures and synthesize various "exposure times" later. And it'll likely be better than what you set blindly, hoping to get the right combination.

I think this shows some disconnect over what many photographers are trying to do with their cameras. The goal often isn't to maximize the use of technology to get the best possible photo _technically speaking,_ but to use your own familiarity with techniques and tools to make something great _yourself._ Computational photography is an anti-feature for many photographers.

Beyond that; you usually aren't shooting blind unless you choose to. Cameras come with metering (and have done so for many decades now), and it's gotten pretty damn good at telling you when your photo's properly exposed. Newer (<15 years old) cameras will often also have a histogram which gives you even more data than an EV meter.

[cyberax]

> Not necessarily. You might be looking through the viewfinder, which will almost always have better contrast

Most mirrorless cameras have electronic viewfinders. They are _worse_ than a phone screen. And they still show you only an approximation of the final image, filtered through an underexposed sensor and whatever processing steps the camera has.

And if the viewfinder is purely optical (in a mirrorless camera) then it won't show the autofocus feedback.

> if you're using the display, fumbling through a touchscreen interface will always be slower than doing the same with a haptic interface you're used to.

Except that you bumped the control wheel on top some time earlier during the day, and it's now at +3 exposure instead of "0". You don't see that in the viewfinder, and find out only when the pictures are downloaded to your computer 2 months later.

Ask me how I know about this scenario.

Oh, or another one I learned at school while taking pictures for the class: if you don't have a perfect vision, and you focus the optical viewfinder until the image is in focus, the actual film image will demonstrate to everyone else exactly how you see the world with your imperfect vision.

> The goal often isn't to maximize the use of technology to get the best possible photo _technically speaking,_ but to use your own familiarity with techniques and tools to make something great _yourself._

And for me, the goal is to take good pictures for my memories, utilizing as much technology and automation as possible. I don't want to spend time learning every function of that 15 knobs on my camera. I want optical zoom and a full-frame sensor, but the same UI experience as on my phone.

[verandaguy]

    > Most mirrorless cameras have electronic viewfinders. They are _worse_ than a phone screen. And they still show you only an approximation of the final image, filtered through an underexposed sensor and whatever processing steps the camera has.

Not in newer designs. Modern cameras have similar or higher perceived pixel density, with very little or no perceptible screen dooring. Latency on later-gen cameras is also very low to the point of being imperceptible.

    > And if the viewfinder is purely optical (in a mirrorless camera) then it won't show the autofocus feedback.

I think what you're describing is a rangefinder, as seen on some Leicas for example. This is correct, but rangefinder cameras are a niche within a niche. Frankly I don't know how rangefinder users make use of that in the first place.

> Except that you bumped the control wheel on top some time earlier during the day, and it's now at +3 exposure instead of "0". You don't see that in the viewfinder, and find out only when the pictures are downloaded to your computer 2 months later.

I mean, I can't help you here, this kind of misinput is just as likely if not more on a touchscreen in my experience. The fact is that:

- Normally, on any camera I've used between Sony and Nikon, one click of the control wheel is +/- 1/3 EV. Hitting it nine times and failing to pay attention to the live preview or EV metering scale sounds like user error to me.

- If it takes you 2 months to unload your photos, you probably aren't the target audience for these cameras to begin with, to be blunt.

- Assuming it was _less_ than 3EV, most modern cameras shooting in RAW will, for most scenes, be able to give you the dynamic range to still work with the photo in post.

[cyberax]

> Not in newer designs. Modern cameras have similar or higher perceived pixel density, with very little or no perceptible screen dooring. Latency on later-gen cameras is also very low to the point of being imperceptible.

Wow, so just like my phone! My point is, the viewfinder is _still_ electronic. It doesn't really provide much advantage compared to just showing an image on the screen. That's why some of the mirrorless cameras don't even have a viewfinder anymore (e.g. EOS M6 Mark II).

> I mean, I can't help you here, this kind of misinput is just as likely if not more on a touchscreen in my experience.

It can be shown on the screen, and the UI can more faithfully reflect the settings.

> - If it takes you 2 months to unload your photos, you probably aren't the target audience for these cameras to begin with, to be blunt.

Sure. That's why I want GPS, on the photos. But I still want a good optical system, there's just no way around the sensor size and the lens quality.

[bayindirh]

Viewfinder shows all that information in real time already, but after a certain point, you know what your camera gonna do with these settings:

    Hmm... It's a bit too bright and this thing gonna overexpose a bit so, let's compensate it with -0.7EV...

    Hmm... With this settings, it'll track the face automatically so I don't need to think about it now.

This is how you instinctively think while taking a photo. It's automatic. I don't know what my metering says me for most of the time, because I already know from experience. Metering is always there though. If it says something contrary to you, it's worth paying attention (again a split second).

If I can take this [0] with a single frame, why should I bother about multiple frames? Or, if I can take this [1] with a simple 7-shot bracket (which is overkill, 3 will already do, but why not) and simple compositing, why should I bother? Lastly, if I can take this [2] again with a single shot, with a bog standard lens and with a good tripod, why should I bother with tracked shots, etc. (You can always take better astros, but this is a great shot for a single frame and some post processing).

In photography, sensor size is still the king. A mirrorless camera is much crisper than a phone camera, the comparison is still moot. Esp. when you compare full frame sensors to phone camera sensors, even the best ones (like Sony's 48/12 Quad-Bayer systems) fall way short of even an APS-C sensor. It's physics. A RAW image from a big sensor is 90% there. When taking a photo with a phone, you're adding much much more to make it look good.

The joy of photography comes from capturing that fleeting moment and framing it to create something worth looking and remembering that moment. Not synthesizing artificial looking colors with extreme post processing which bends the truth in that moment.

[0]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/zerocoder/33984196648/

[1]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/zerocoder/47965142511/

[2]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/zerocoder/46092337964/

[cyberax]

> Hmm... It's a bit too bright and this thing gonna overexpose a bit so, let's compensate it with -0.7EV...

Why should _I_ do that instead of the camera?

> If I can take this [0] with a single frame, why should I bother about multiple frames?

You shouldn't. The camera should. It already knows the illumination level, and it can take multiple measurements from its CCD, until the total amount of transferred charge per pixel is enough to build a good picture. And while at it, just take a couple more pictures with intentionally over-exposed sensor to automatically offer the HDR version.

You know, the thing that phone cameras have been doing for a decade or so.

> In photography, sensor size is still the king.

Yes, and that's why I want a mirrorless camera with changeable lenses. There's only so much software can do with a phone's optical system.

However, the same software can do so much more when coupled with a big sensor and a good optical system.

[bayindirh]

> Why should _I_ do that instead of the camera?

First, every machine has its limits, second every photographer has a style.

> You shouldn't. The camera should.

No. The camera should do exactly as I say. It's an instrument, which shall allow footguns. Because one person's footgun is other person's style. Camera should be a blunt instrument, and should completely get out of the photographer's way, shall become transparent.

It's not the camera's interpretation of the scene. It's the photographer's interpretation through the camera.

> ...offer the HDR version.

If you feel lazy, many mirrorless cameras do that, but the results are may not fit your taste. Sony A7III's Auto-HDR is nice, but it's not exactly what I want, so I merge mine manually.

> You know, the thing that phone cameras have been doing for a decade or so.

I have quite a few cameras: A Canonette 28, a Pentax MZ50, a Nikon D70s and a Sony A7-III. I also used Canon AE-1, etc. All of these cameras have metering, and all of them are excellent for their era. They are not infallible or perfect.

For example, D70s freaks out in CFL and LED environments, because these indoor lighting was non-existent when it was designed. So a custom WB is a must in this case. A7-III sometimes struggles in colored LED (sodium yellow-ish) environments, so you again set custom WB. That machine was the most accurate camera in terms of color when it came out.

As I said, every machine has its limits.

> However, the same software can do so much more when coupled with a big sensor and a good optical system.

The thing is, photographer's don't want the software. They want what they exactly see recorded in a file, and that's more of a dynamic range thing more than a color thing, and it's directly related to sensor hardware (regardless of its size), not software.

From my understanding, you want a mirrorless (or full frame) point and shoot, and that's OK. What I want is total control over the camera hardware, regardless of its form factor.

[cyberax]

> First, every machine has its limits, second every photographer has a style.

This is such a bullshit statement...

> No. The camera should do exactly as I say.

Well, time to throw your camera away, I guess. Unless you have a very old DSLR camera, of course.

> It's not the camera's interpretation of the scene. It's the photographer's interpretation through the camera.

The thing is, the camera can take multiple exposures at no cost, and then you can just discard the ones that you don't need. So you basically want to artificially limit the software and hardware to simulate the old-timey workflows.

> For example, D70s freaks out in CFL and LED environments, because these indoor lighting was non-existent when it was designed.

See: smartphones.

> The thing is, photographer's don't want the software.

This photographer wants it. And the market has clearly spoken in agreement with me.

> From my understanding, you want a mirrorless (or full frame) point and shoot, and that's OK.

Pretty much.

[numpad0]

> You're looking at the screen to track the target anyway.

What? No. You present the camera to where it shall be, pin it where the image aligns with the framing you had in mind, and press the shutter. Almost the exact the same as guns minus violence(unless you consider artistic expression a form of violence). This applies to phones too.

> And with the computational photography, you can just take multiple pictures and synthesize various "exposure times" later.

The technology isn't there. Yes, it's 2024, there has to be half a dozen competing models of multispectral LIDAR slaved mirrorless cameras with Gaussian splats features, I agree, but it's easier and cheaper to just load couple AA batteries to a regular clip-on flash and physically stop down the aperture for portraits, or just be where you want to be with a flask of hot coffee for scenery photos.

[m463]

very early on with my garmin watch, I disabled the touchscreen at all times.