[Swizec]

> This is an oft-stated thing that I oft-disagree with. It states that engineers ought to be subordinate to PMs, which shouldn't always be the case.

I think of it more as a partnership.

If I’m in charge of getting groceries and you’re in charge of budgets, we need to have an informed discussion on what exactly is our budget and what food we need so we don’t starve. Sure I could blow the whole budget on steak and I might even love eating nothing but steak for 3 days, but eventually some carbs would be nice. Likewise neither of us will be happy if I go max stingy and buy nothing but bags of rice for the week.

The reason I think PMs should make the final call is not that engineers are subordinate, it’s that PMs are accountable. (RACI – responsible, accountable, consulted, informed). The person whose ass is on the line makes the call.

Usually when I ask engineers if they want to be accountable for making the call (and its outcome), things get real quiet real fast :)

[NAHWheatCracker]

If PMs are accountable, then I'm with you. Decision making should lie with those accountable.

From what I've seen, accountability doesn't mean much. Could be the places I've worked. Poor PMs get promoted despite running projects into the ground, good engineers get held back despite pushing through adverse project plans, vice versa.