[mchannon]

The US Government already has my DNA. Because of 23andme, I was able to discover I had one copy of delta-32, and that’s pretty cool.

I was also able to find out where I came from and connect with distant relatives. To those who are tightly connected with their huge family, you’re privileged.

I’d be sad if this resource went away but I don’t fear it being used for nefarious purposes. I can rest assured the US government is already miles ahead toward that end.

[ungreased0675]

You don’t worry about an additional potentially malicious actor having your information because one already has it?

[mchannon]

If I was worried I wouldn't have furnished my DNA to a corporation with very little accountability in the first place.

I got enough out of the deal (instead of nothing from the government) that it was in my mind an acceptable tradeoff. No one's about to start cloning me.

Your DNA is not secret. You leave it everywhere you go. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy for your litter when you litter. It's only a matter of time and of tech before everybody has a copy of everybody's DNA.

[jpeeler]

That is the crux of the entire privacy argument. Why strive for privacy when "I have nothing to hide?" Also, how sure are you that having a copy of everyone's DNA data will become widespread? At a minimum, perhaps if you delay making the data easy to extract one can at least hold out hope that privacy laws will catch up. Of course, there's zero guarantee in that happening either.

Lastly, security through obscurity is not something to be relied upon. But it can work for a period of time.

[dahart]

There is a list of reasons several agencies in US government like the FBI collects DNA from some people, but they don’t have DNA for all US citizens and I don’t expect the government to have my DNA. What nefarious purposes do you imagine the government has? Is matching suspected criminals against the crime database a nefarious purpose?

Would you care if 23AndMe sold your DNA & analysis to a private for-profit medical insurance data provider who could recommend hiking your price or denying coverage, based on your genetic markers, without having to tell the insurance company why and without having to share your DNA? This is one of the private business nefarious purposes I worry about, based on having a friend who worked in credit processing saying that they were looking for legal ways to sell purchasing habits to medical insurance companies.

[mchannon]

Perhaps it was inadvertent diction, but your use of “imagine” appears to ridicule my opinion. Not cool.

I’ve done time with an individual who got (I believe) wrongfully convicted due to genetic genealogy. A lay jury watches Law and Order, hear “DNA”, and will proverbially buy the Brooklyn Bridge from prosecutors.

Get too unpopular with those in power, and maybe your DNA can be traced to a shell casing for an unsolved assassination a continent away from you.

Annie Dookhan wrongfully convicted thousands upon thousands upon her doctored drug tests. Someone just like her could do it to you or someone else with your DNA test.

There are laws against insurers citing preexisting conditions to deny coverage, and most DNA is equivocal as to whether you’ll develop expensive maladies. So that doesn’t worry me either.

[metaphor]

> There are laws against insurers citing preexisting conditions to deny coverage, and most DNA is equivocal as to whether you’ll develop expensive maladies.

In the US, those laws have been under persistent attack by Republicans since enactment, and there hasn't been a major election cycle where its repeal wasn't a campaign dog whistle[1].

And since when has for-profit industry required unequivocal evidence to strengthen their balance sheets and fatten their bottom lines?? These gamified business decisions are always beyond opaque and the burden of proof is always unfavorably shifted onto consumers in harm's way.

[1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases...

[dahart]

I’m confused by that. I didn’t ridicule you, no need to make negative assumptions. I’m simply asking what you know about “nefarious purposes”, given that the government certainly doesn’t admit having such intentions.

Okay, yes convictions can be messy and wrong, and juries can believe stuff from TV that isn’t true. Neither of those demonstrates government intent. None of the lawyers nor the juries nor the producers of Law and Order necessarily work for the government. You complained about my use of “imagine” and then threw out a completely hypothetical and vague scenario (three, actually). Even abuses of power by government employed individuals seeking some kind of retribution don’t demonstrate nefarious government purpose on the whole.

There are laws against wrongful convictions and untrue testimony and abuse of power too. Annie Dookhan went to prison, and convictions based on her false evidence are being dropped and overturned. Why do you choose to feel safe with insurance laws made by the government and not trial laws?

[mchannon]

Personal experience. Unlike most, I have been wrongfully convicted on fabricated evidence but never denied insurance coverage.

I strongly encourage you to get in the habit of proofreading your posts for tone. You write with pique, a habit I find familiar, as I used to do the same when I was younger.

It’s not just what you say but how you say it, and tone can either further your contribution or get in the way.

[dahart]

I’m sorry my use of “imagine” offended you. I did not intend for that to be a slight, but I apologize that it came off that way nonetheless. I intended it to be an advance acknowledgement of the fact that it may be difficult to prove the government as a whole has intent to use DNA in questionable or “nefarious” ways. I was simply asking your reasons for making such claims.

I know the government does crappy things sometimes, even things that contradict its own laws. I’m still curious, piqued if you will, about how DNA can be used by the government against me, what things I/we should be potentially concerned about.

Personal experience is fair. It’s also the reason I lean towards fear of DNA being used against me by private for-profit companies more that I worry about the government.

[howard941]

I lack faith in the longevity of laws regarding preexisting conditions, both the one in PPACA and the one in GINA. One vice presidential candidate is currently advocating against continuing the preexisting condition protections. There's too much money in the insurance industry to keep up a bulwark for these protections.

[a0123]

> What nefarious purposes do you imagine the government has? Is matching suspected criminals against the crime database a nefarious purpose?

This is just strange.

Do you have no imagination whatsoever or have you never set foot in school or do you know literally nothing about history (maybe you were born yesterday and really quickly figured out how to write, I don't know)?

[EasyMark]

The government will try all sorts of immoral things, it is made up of people after all, and a significant portion of people have no or very weak morals/compassion. Tuskegee experiments, human radiation experiments, edgewood arsenal experiments, project 112, operation sea-spray….

[EasyMark]

I would extremely surprised if the US government doesn’t have all of 23andme’s data, it’s simply too valuable not to get that data by any means possible for black ops side of government.

[smcin]

When you say "the US govt", do you mean whether DHS(/FBI/etc.) freely access the genetic data of ~15m users without warrant (or disclosure), or that various LE agencies have for a decade been requesting specific users to voluntarily share their ancestry/genetic data supposedly for cold cases [0], or whether third parties have also subpoenaed the genetic data of specific users (e.g. paternity suits), or whether 23andMe in future firesale/auction that data to other entities and whether there are limits on how they can exploit it? Anyway I guess some year soon there'll be a precedent case (like the 2019 FL Amazon Alexa voice recordings at the time of a murder), probably too late for public awareness.

Has 23andMe disclosed how many users' genetic data have been accessed by govt or LE agencies or third parties? Is it obligated to? Does this obligation still attach if/when 23andMe ceases to exist? Have any privacy researchers estimated what (ancestry-only?) data got resold on the darkweb since 2023?

Since federal laws like HIPAA don't cover 23andMe or the genetic data(!) it holds on 14+m users, because as currently written “HIPAA does not protect data that’s held by direct-to-consumer companies [outside of healthcare] like 23andMe” [1]. Although CA and FL consumer laws give some protection against the company - but no criminal protection against people selling it on the darkweb. Also, it's unclear whether any protections automatically attach in the event of a firesale of assets/bankruptcy.

Hence 23andMe was able to settle the 2023 breach of 6.9m users' data (ancestry data, not actual genetic data) lawsuit for a tiny $30m [2], no criminal penalty, no admission of negligence or wrongdoing, no executive resignations.

Compare to the (suspended) criminal conviction of the CEO in the 2020 Finland Vastaamo psychotherapy center data breach (only ~36,000 patients), for violating GDPR. [3]

Also, to the GDPR-related discussion on expectations about cloud sovereignty of genetic and ancestry data, there's an obvious implication that consumers want GDPR to effectively protect their data, they should at absolute minimum insist on a cast-iron guarantee that sovereignty is enforced. With strong criminal penalties.

[0]: Fusion.net, 2015, "Cops are asking Ancestry.com and 23andMe for their customers’ DNA" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10400550 -> https://web.archive.org/web/20160707221934/http://fusion.net...

[1]: https://www.npr.org/2024/10/03/g-s1-25795/23andme-data-genet...

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41536494

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vastaamo_data_breach#Legal_aft...