[qqq]

Sure I am. For example, children who don't like a given set of homework problems are made to do it anyway. Doesn't matter if they have something else productive they want to do, it's outside of their interests, they have reasons (which have not been addressed) to think it's a waste of time, etc... That hurts.

[throw_away]

Dr. Foster: Would you please tell your son to stop?

Ned's Dad: We can't do it, man! That's discipline! That's like tellin' Gene Krupa not to go [starts banging on the desk] "boom boom bam bam bam, boom boom bam bam bam, boom boom boom bam ba ba ba ba, da boo boo tss!"

Ned's Dad: We don't believe in rules, like, we gave them up when we started livin' like freaky beatniks!

Dr. Foster: You don't believe in rules, yet you want to control Ned's anger.

Ned's Mom: Yeah. You gotta help us, Doc. We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas.

[qqq]

I don't want people to be hurt. You present a situation where people are being hurt. I am not happy with that situation either. Something has gone wrong. A solution is needed. The difference is that I don't take it for granted the solution must or should be unpleasant for the child. Solutions should be good things that all people are glad to have.

[tptacek]

Just like taxes, speed limits, and vaccinations!

[qqq]

Those all contain problems, which can and should be solved.

You don't want to find ways to reduce (or eliminate) taxes, without any negative side effects?

You wouldn't approve of a way to deliver vaccinations that hurts less than a needle? (Personally I don't mind it, but some people do.)

You wouldn't approve of finding a way to let people travel faster? One without negative side effects, of course.

You seem to be advocating for the status quo, and denying improvement is possible.

[tptacek]

Thanks for giving me a message board thread to geek out on while waiting for dinner to cook, and, I suppose, for inducing me to consider TCS; have a happy new year.

[throw_away]

not so much being a pessimist, but being a realist. hope is nice and all, but are you seriously going to invent a new vaccination mechanism before your child needs her MMR shots? you may not mind injections, but I've never seen an infant or toddler that was much of a fan. given that, will you spare your child the discomfort of the needle and expose her to the risk of catching an easily preventable (and dangerous) infection? measles are far less pleasant than an injection. life is punctuated by the occasional unpleasantness and protecting your child from that entirely until adulthood does her a great disservice.

[tptacek]

My daughter is 7 and she will take your eyes out before she lets you poke her with a needle --- and that's after the inevitable well-reasoned, polite, non-patronizing conversation about why vaccinations are important, which she of course understands and appreciates.

[qqq]

Vaccinations are easy. just offer topical anesthetic and be nice about it. the reason people have problems with them is they don't think about the kids at all, and don't give the kid any control over the situation, and scare them.

[tptacek]

Wow, is that creepy.

[qqq]

I value the pursuit of happiness, individual freedom, human rights, etc

I just apply them to a minority group that you don't recognize as fully human.

[tptacek]

Oh, absolutely no offense taken.

[cmars232]

That's life