[brezelgoring]

I’m not American, nor do I own a timeshare, but weren’t timeshares scams in and of themselves? I remember reading about them about 15~20 years ago.

Targeting victims of previous scams is common in crypto and MLM circles. The trick is almost always promising them an out of their previous losses with a new venture and this venture is sold to them on the basis of them being ‘experienced’ or ‘knowledgeable’ about the previous venture.

[jimt1234]

My friend's wife attended a timeshare presentation and, unfortunately, she ended up signing. She thought she got a great deal - "We can go to Hawaii twice-per-year, and pay far less than staying at a hotel!" Well, almost immediately, they started receiving invoices with outrageous charges, like "maintenance fees" and dubious property taxes. The original contract was for $200/month, but all the additional charges brought the cost to around $2000/month. They tried to get out of the contract. The timeshare company wouldn't return their calls. Finally, after a few months they talked to someone who told them there was no getting out of the contract - basically, "Sorry, you signed a contract." My friend and his wife ended up declaring bankruptcy, just to get out of the timeshare contract. They never even went to the timeshare. Not once.

[nradov]

That story seems to be missing some pieces. Most people would just refuse to pay the invoices and wait for the timeshare company to sue. I suspect your friends might have had other financial problems beyond just the timeshare.

[jncfhnb]

Seems quite nutty to think you’d find yourself flying to Hawaii twice per year even if the housing was free

[toast0]

It's a long flight, but it's not an unreasonably expensive flight. Especially if you live in a place with winter, it might be nice to visit in novemberish and marchish to get a warm week in between your cold at home. There's lots of people who live near me and visit Hawaii once a year.

Personally, I'd be more likely to do a two week stay than two one week stays, I'd rather reduce my time on an airplane. But leaving for two weeks is harder than leaving for one for all sorts of reasons.

[ghaff]

Yes. But interests change. Life interferes. Etc.

There are certain trips I try to do annually but I have zero interest in being locked into someplace like Hawaii on a schedule.

I agree that, especially, after semi-retiring, my goal isn't really to travel less but to spend less time on planes.

[PoignardAzur]

Also, like, how do you even handle the resentment?

Odds are you're just staying with tourists most of the time, and whenever you do need to deal with the locals you have to ignore their thinly-veiled contempt mixed with self-loathing for depending on your patronage.

I hear it gets kind of awkward for Paris people getting summer homes in Britanny. I'm pretty sure the degree of hostility towards mainland Americans getting winter homes in Hawai must be much higher.

[potato3732842]

In places like Hawaii where the economy is pure tourism there isn't much hostility. You're a paycheck to them.

Also tourism economies are terrible and create a bunch of terrible perverse incentives for both business and government.

Source: Grew up in one

[morkalork]

The crazy thing to me is always going to the same place for vacation. Really? No variety, ever?

[PaulHoule]

Some of them are “points-based” and you can spend your points at different resorts that they own and hypothetically have some flexibility in time but “points” should be a bad smell, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razzle_(game)

Where they actually cheat to help you get enough points that you think you could win them when they stop cheating the game is unwinnable. If the cops show up they will see the carnie playing ‘honestly’ and not see anything wrong. In terms of psychology it is the king of scams.

In the case of the timeshare schemes you will find all sorts of problems and limitations when you try to redeem your points, it is like the limitations on airline frequent flier points but raised to the Nth power.

[ciropantera]

They cover that in their sales pitch. There's supposedly a market for trading timeshares, so you can trade in your timeshare for someone else's, specially if you have a highly coveted one

Of course none of it is as easy as they make it sound.

[ghaff]

Right. "Supposedly." I've always avoided options that more or less locked me into a single location.

I do go up to my dad's--now brother's--place in Maine a few times a year but that's as much for family as having a need to go to a specific location. Absent family, I'd probably even vary that a bit.

[lotsofpulp]

It’s pretty sweet if you’re on the west coast and you have young kids. Extremely high chance of a good, relaxing time for everyone, and it’s a non stop flight for most people. Plus, many people take multiple vacations in a year.

Obviously, not every worth buying a timeshare.

[bawolff]

Idk, as a canadian, going to a tropical island twice a year in the middle of winter sounds pretty nice, even if its the same island.

[jncfhnb]

All things equal, sure. But is the cost of the hotel really the thing stopping you from doing that?

[vkou]

A round-trip flight from the West coast is ~$300.

A beach hotel starts at ~$300/night.

[rty32]

Even from the west coast it's a 6 hr flight. Combined with time difference, it often means 2 days on travelling alone. Even worse for people in mid west or near west coast, which is the majority of where the population is [0]. For most people I know, Hawaii is a trip once every few years, and definitely not twice a year.

[0] http://dhmontgomery.com/2018/02/population-latitude/

[bluGill]

This is a week vacation though, not a weekend. I agree it doesn't work for a weekend, but if you take a full week off things look much better. If you really do want to go to that exact place in Hawaii for one week a year every year for the rest of your life a timeshare is a great deal (assuming the fees are as stated, sometimes what looks like $100/month turns out to be $2000/month) - but I don't know many people who vacation like that. I do plan to go back to Hawaii, but I also have vacation plans for Boston, Florida, California, Spain... Even the people I know who do vacation like that don't do it for life (I make regular trips to visit my in-laws, but they are thinking about moving states so I may have already taken my last visit to their current home)

In the end, the best case a timeshare does save money. However for most people the restrictions mean you are never in the best case and often you are in the worst case and lose money.

[beAbU]

Isn't there usually some cooldown period for contracts like these? Or is that not a US thing? Any sales contract that I have signed in the past came with a 15-30 day cooldown period, where if I change my mind I can cancel no matter what.

I had to do it once where I caved under the pressure of a particularly aggressive "life insurance" salesperson, only realized my mistake a day after signing, so I called them up and exercised my right to "cool down".

[ceejayoz]

Yes, but it's short (three days in some states), and they'll do everything in their power to dodge your attempts to use it.

[teeray]

> and they'll do everything in their power to dodge your attempts to use it.

A gym I was interested in joining had a pay-for-one-month deal, so I said, “sure, why not?” Their system took my e-signature for authorizing the one-time credit card transaction and copied (forged) it onto a shitty gym contract with auto-renewal and a bunch of other terms I didn’t agree to.

Fortunately, my state had a 3-day right of recision, so I followed the requirements in the law to the letter. It only required written notification that I’m exercising my right, so I printed a letter as such, brought a notary friend and another friend as witness, and hand-delivered it to the manager on duty and asked them to sign a receipt for it (which was witnessed and notarized). They tried to give me all kinds of crap about “the company cancellation process,” which I said is great and all, but not applicable because state law trumps company policy and state law says that as of 30 seconds ago our contract never existed. They ultimately relented, especially since they were nervous about the forgery aspect too.

[saalweachter]

The most important part of any contract is the termination clause.

[ecshafer]

Timeshares / Vacation Clubs (they are basically the same thing) are massive scams. They use tricky math, high pressure sales tactics, etc. to push people who can't afford it into taking out massive loans to pay into contracts they can basically never get out of.

I went to a vacation club presentation for a bunch of free stuff once, it wasn't worth it. But its crazy the things they push onto you. They make up numbers on how expensive vacations are to pressure people into thinking they have a deal. Then they try and sell a huge package ($50k+) and to push people into a 20%+ APR loan. Then if you do sign, they stick monthly fees on top of it in perpetuity.

Its a bad idea, but I could see how people that don't have a sharp eye and a mathematical maturity might fall for it.

[salad-tycoon]

Went to one once, one of the kids pooped. It was a bad one. The sales team wanted to keep going even as they enveloped by an incredibly thick stinky pungent hazardous stench. Real focus, reminded me of the movie quote “ABC always be closing.” Was interesting to be on the receiving end, a lot to study and not just the offers of “amazing places” but more so in terms of presentation and tactics. Leave your pocket book at home but everyone should experience one. (Oh yeah, didn’t sign of course, the rental locations were all on air bnb but cheaper and with none of the extra fees that they would have charged forever. Ha. Woops.)

[ecshafer]

The ABC thing is very evident when you are on the end of it. Every excuse to keep you there and try to get you to sign, they have a response for it. No money? We have loans. Bad credit? Lets get a cosigner. Anything to keep you there or to sign.

[JoshTriplett]

I've had door-to-door salespeople go "I see you have a no-soliciting sign but ...". They don't get to finish that sentence before the door closes.

[silisili]

Not sure about other cultures, but Americans lives in general I think would be a bit less stressful if there wasn't some weird aversion to just saying 'no' to things you don't want to do, rather than reaching for excuses. Is it seen as rude? I much prefer the directness of it on the receiving end, but maybe I'm weird.

[DistractionRect]

It's actually the opposite. People don't really take no for an answer anymore, and that's doubly true of anyone trying to sell you stuff, so instead of saying "no/ will not", we try to justify why we "cannot/are physically unable to" to stop the onslaught.

Like canceling cable, home internet. It's not that we're using something else, not using it at all, don't want it. It's "we're moving/going to jail for 5 years/dying Thursday and thus cannot continue using this service"

I had a door to door salesman ask if I was racist after I told him I wasn't interested, as if to try to pressure me into proving I wasn't a racist by listening to his pitch/buying into whatever he was selling. It's gotten to the point where I have a video door bell so know when I can skip it all by not answering//pretending I'm not home.

[chmod775]

If they don't take the polite "no", immediately reach for insults. People who intentionally annoy you don't deserve civility - they're not showing any themselves.

My personal favorites is along the lines of: "Are you hard of hearing, you stupid clown?" - no overly foul language and safe to use in most company.

Few will try selling stuff to someone hurling nothing but insults at them. There's really only one group of people this doesn't work on, and they're the bottom of the barrel trying to find victims on public transport and the like. If you figure out a way to reliably get rid of them, let me know!

[tayo42]

The internet companies have mobile offerings now to push on you when you move. I thought while recently moving it would be a quick call to disconnect and still got a retention sales pitch...

[lainga]

What was he selling?

[nicholasjarnold]

> the rental locations were all on air bnb but cheaper and with none of the extra fees that they would have charged forever

Exactly! Came here to echo this. I have family that got roped into this arrangement and the annual maintenance fees (and other misc fees at every turn) coupled with the up-front cost is absolutely ridiculous when compared to just booking an AirBnB/VRBO/etc for a couple weeks.

Also agree on sitting through one with zero intention to sign, once. It's a unique experience, and I feel like most people not already doing sales/marketing professionally might learn something from it.

[bombcar]

I’d be vary wary of going even if you have zero intention of being sucked in. They’re literally trained and adept at exactly those kinds of people - so don’t go unless you can sign over a durable power of attorney to someone offsite for the duration.

[pdonis]

I ran a similar experiment many years ago, not with a timeshare but with a multi-level marketing scheme. The tactics they used were very similar. I kept saying no and they kept inventing new reasons for me to sign up. I finally got bored and said no, thanks, I'm done, and walked out--but even then they were trying new reasons on me until I got out the door.

[interludead]

A classic experience!

[anthomtb]

> I went to a vacation club presentation for a bunch of free stuff once, it wasn't worth it.

My wife and I signed up for a snorkel tour a few years ago, one of those "attend this 45 minute presentation and get your tour for half price!" deals.

We skipped the presentation and ended up being charged the full tour cost plus something extra, I think $25/person on a $200/person tour.

That has to be close to the best 50 bucks I ever spent.

[nunez]

I haven't tried this (yet), but I read that pointing out how much more cheaply one could get a timeshare on eBay gets you an immediate out from the negotiation process.

Timeshares on eBay are crazy cheap by comparison. A timeshare in Hawaii during prime season can be had for $50k or something like that, which sounds like a lot until you realize that the vacation clubs will sell that timeshare for, like, $500k.

[jandrese]

I went to one of those timeshare presentations before just because the free prize for sitting through it was especially desirable.

My impression is that they were heavily targeting people who were bad at math. Every time I ran the numbers (I had a lot of opportunities while trapped in the room waiting for the prize counter to open) it just made no sense whatsoever. Beyond the amount you were overpaying for the apartment, the fees we so expensive that you could vacation on what you would have been paying in fees for a long time. The fees didn't even get you much, you still had to do all of the cleaning and a lot of the maintenance as they were not included. The fees only really covered exterior maintenance and mowing the lawns, and were about two or three orders of magnitude higher than they should be for those services if you assumed every unit in the complex was paying them 52 times a year.

Timeshares as a concept could in theory work, but the entire industry consists of grifters far more focused on getting rich than providing a service to their customers. It is ironic that the primary focus of the presentations is how expensive it would be to take a beach vacation every year, which is true, and how timeshares in concept could make this much more affordable, which is also true, but then they show you the numbers and the reality is completely opposite.

[BrandoElFollito]

Out of curiosity: what kind of freebies are there during such presentations? (I am form France and we don't really have that concept here)

[jandrese]

Free weekend vacation at Disney World, including admission to the parks. You actually stayed in one of the timeshare units they were trying to sell. The presentation was about 3 hours long, and mostly consisted of a high pressure sales pitch full of dubious claims. The salesguys were not impressed by the math.

[xnyan]

I think the prizes I've seen are generally in the range of $300-600 cash value. To get it you have to sit through the hardest and most annoying sales pitch imaginable. I did it once. I was never tempted even slightly to buy their scam, but it was so miserable to sit through that it's not something I'd ever do again.

[basementcat]

After some negotiation (don’t settle for the first "prize" they offer you) I got a free flight and hotel to Orlando, FL and I used the time to visit the Air Force Missile Museum at Cape Canaveral (at the time, I had a badge that let me get on base to visit the museum).

You do need to be prepared for a hard sell. They are clearly making money otherwise they wouldn’t fly me around the country.

[nunez]

They usually offer heavily discounted stays at hotels in prime locations, free cruises, and other vacation-y things.

[bombcar]

They get them in bulk so they’re often not all that great in value.

However if your time isn’t worth $50/hr or more (as in you’re a college student, etc) and you’re strong willed it can be worth it. Maybe.

[patwolf]

I don't think scam is the right word. Timeshare sales may be predatory, but they're not fraudulent.

[the_gorilla]

Calling something a scam can just mean they profit off highly immoral behavior or are inherently deceptive. Loan sharks are scams. Pyramid schemes were scams, even when they weren't illegal.

[lcnPylGDnU4H9OF]

It's wild that "predatory" doesn't sound at least as bad as "fraudulent". Customers aren't prey just as much as they're not people to be lied to!

[xnyan]

I've never seen a single timeshare that makes sense in terms of cost to value ratio. There's always a more flexible/cheaper/profitable way to do whatever it is you're trying to do than a timeshare, unless of course you're the one selling it. Very fair to call it a scam.

[zeroonetwothree]

Scam is more general than outright fraud. I would say they mislead you about the financials enough to count.

[_yb2s]

They’re certainly scammy and overpriced, but probably still a better deal than owning a full vacation home that sits empty most of the year….

[jt2190]

In a “Vacation club” you own a bag of “points” that you can use to book a unit at a resort. You are not guaranteed that units will be available, nor are you guaranteed a price (i.e. how many points you’ll have to use). You will have to pay for points every year no matter what.

True “shared ownership of a single unit at a resort” is far less common these days.

[gwbas1c]

> but probably still a better deal than owning a full vacation home that sits empty most of the year

If you can walk away: then 100% yes. I've considered a timeshare at a ski resort during the popular school vacation week.

The problem is that often you can't walk away. IE, with a vacation home, you can sell it; or otherwise default on the mortgage / taxes. With a timeshare, that's harder.

Personally, I just stay in hotels. So much easier, and the hotel bill is cheaper than whatever monthly payment the timeshare / vacation home is.

[Ekaros]

Also that sort of specific time is an issue for this type of arrangement. Because large share of participants would want the same time. Which unless they share the places during stay...

In the end just buying it piece meal is most likely best option.

[gwbas1c]

That one week is super popular, all the other weeks are dirt cheap

[steveBK123]

> but probably still a better deal than owning a full vacation home that sits empty most of the year

Timeshares give up a lot of the advantages of just owning a vacation home, without many advantages other than price.

You have even less control of the property than a coop/condo, you don't get the financial incentive of possible real estate appreciation, there is no real liquid open market for resale.. etc.

Time shares are like a casino where the house always wins. They control the costs/fees the same way a casino controls the odds/payouts. They are probably less regulated than a casino too.

The other advantage to a proper vacation home is.. if its a beach / ski / whatever place whatever, you leave all your gear there, changes of clothes, etc.. not hauling stuff.

[drsim]

I doubt it. You have the loan interest, annual service fees, and fact that you don’t have a sellable asset, at least for anything like what you paid for it. An empty vacation home is still an appreciating asset. Not a good investment in my circumstances but still better than a timeshare.

[jandrese]

What is most amazing is that there is an entire industry of getting people out of timeshares. It's not cheap either. People are willing to pay large sums and take big losses for millstone removal. Timeshare companies pay a lot for every single successful sign up, so they are not willing to let them go without a fight.

[jerlam]

Some timeshare companies have their own buyback / abandonment programs in response to the scammy exit companies:

HGVC: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgvcs-deed-back-process.35...

Hyatt: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hyatt-now-has-a-buy-back-p...

Of course, these are not well advertised. And it contradicts the sales pitch of the timeshare maintaining / increasing in value if you are simply giving it back for free.

[dawnerd]

Yes but when most won’t let your heirs get out of the contract even that’s the problem. In principle they make sense, Disneys for example has got to be the least scammy of them.

[rvnx]

Checked a little bit Disney. Picking a flexible option for a large family:

From $350 to $1,200 per month for a 10-year loan with a 10% down payment = $144,117

+ the annual fees.

Oh well...

"Ability to finance through our in house financing with no credit check" errrrm.

"A groundbreaking non-credit check model for financing DVC loans. No credit check, no debt-to-income ratios, simply financed based on the value of your purchase."

Though if you purchase from the secondary market ( = people reselling it), it gets cheap enough that it becomes interesting.

[dawnerd]

Resell is the real value, but you need to make sure you understand the limitations to benefits as only people that have bought enough points directly get access to certain benefits such as lounges.

And really the whole thing only makes sense if you pay upfront without a loan.

I've priced it out a few times and for me it doesn't make sense despite staying at WDW ~ 4+ weeks a year.

But when compared to other timeshares, it's not a total lock in and Disney has apparently started buying back contracts if you wanted out.

[dboreham]

Also I've never noticed the high pressure sales tactics from DVC. It's usually "if you want to hear about DVC go talk to that guy with the blazer".

[rvnx]

Thank you!

[reverend_gonzo]

Not quite. You can sell the vacation home, you can (usually) rent it out.

It’s your property; within zoning restrictions, you can do whatever you want with it.

Not true with a timeshare.

[_yb2s]

Yes, you can but people that can afford vacation homes often let them sit empty and lose a lot of money because they don’t want anyone messing with it- it is expensive, and loses a ton of money but they can afford it.

[jerlam]

You can rent out timeshares on Redweek. I've never used the service but it's often recommended to timeshare owners who are unable to stay in their timeshare properties.

[bityard]

> you can (usually) rent it out.

Only if you're lucky enough to own it in a place that hasn't outlawed AirBNB rentals yet.

You didn't hear it from me but the scheme is: an individual or group of investors will buy several properties to AirBNB in a moderately-popular vacation spot. Typically someplace fairly rural and off the beaten path. But desirable enough for photos that might trend briefly on pinterest. Then they (rather covertly) drum up local support for banning AirBNBs, while being careful to make sure their existing rentals are grandfathered in. Now their investments have a moat and they can charge whatever they want for them, especially if there are no hotels or resorts anywhere nearby.

[jandrese]

That seems like a risky ploy. Guaranteeing that the existing AirBNBs get grandfathered in is far from certain. Then again, I've seen plenty of AirBNBs that just ignore the law so maybe it would be fine anyway. I once stayed in one that had explicit instructions on how to respond if someone asked you what you were doing at the house, which fake names to use and everything. Felt incredibly sketchy, but it was also about a third of the price of the cheapest hotel room in the area and didn't have cleaning fees or extensive checkout cleaning bullshit so that wasn't unexpected. Was a great location too.

[balderdash]

Not really. They are cheaper in nominal dollar terms (capital, annual costs, etc) but you are typically paying multiples of that intrinsic value of the property (e.g. 2 weeks $100K up front, $5k year, but for a property that might be $1m not $2.4m and definitely doesn’t cost $120k a year to maintain) plus you get no appreciation upside, no tax benefits etc…

[Johnny555]

They aren't all scams, but they are not an "investment". As long as you understand the program terms and restrictions and you buy your timeshare in a place you'd go anyway, you can get good value out of the money.

But few people do that much research and find out that they don't use it as much as they thought they would either because they don't like the place enough to keep going back, or they didn't account for blackout dates, floating weeks, etc and can't find a time when they can go.

But if you do buy a timeshare, by on the secondary market, don't buy a new one, they quickly drop in value on resale.

[vkou]

They are all scams, because they all lock you into a single-vendor maintenance contract that can charge you anything they want, that you can never get out of.

Theoretically you can run a non-scammy timeshare, but why would you, when running a scam is the same work but so much more lucrative? The lemons push out the good ones in this market.

[hn_throwaway_99]

> They are all scams, because they all lock you into a single-vendor maintenance contract that can charge you anything they want, that you can never get out of.

This is simply factually incorrect. While I myself would never own a timeshare because it just would never make sense for me, some timeshare contracts are for limited lengths (e.g. 20 years) and maintenance fees are capped.

[hn_throwaway_99]

Kind of. Timeshare sales are famous for their high-pressure sales tactics (see the famous South Park episode), so there would be an assumption that these people are susceptible to these tactics.

The issue is less that timeshares are outright scams (though some are), but it's that buyers are locked into a very long term contract that is difficult and expensive to get out off. What may have seemed like a great idea to take the kids on an annual beach vacation now becomes a PITA when those kids are teenagers and now don't want to go on trips with their parents.

So with timeshare owners you have (a) people likely susceptible to high pressure sales tactics who (b) are likely highly motivated to get out of their contract. So a perfect target for scammers.

[thebruce87m]

My parents had various timeshares and got good holidays from them and were generally happy, so I don’t think they are by default a scam.

We still go to one 30 years later, and the maintenance is about 1/3 of what you’d pay for an equivalent hotel room (€1,000 vs €3,000) so I think overall they are “up”.

[rty32]

Sounds like your family is much, much richer than the general population, so your experience probably isn't super meaningful to other people.

[thebruce87m]

What gave you that idea?

[nordsieck]

> weren’t timeshares scams in and of themselves?

They're not technically scams. Just generally not good things to own for most people.

If you use your vacation time every year for the rest of your life, they can be decent.

It's just that most people don't want to vacation to the same place, the same week every year. And they're notoriously difficult to get out of.

[RaftPeople]

My parents bought into Worldmark by Wyndham and they or us kids used it a ton, and the facilities were all pretty nice, so there are some that work out well.

[hosh]

Timeshares are very much scammy. What sucks is that it's all legal. If anything, the law -- the ones that protect the interests of real estate owners and lenders -- is used to lock people into making payments that are very difficult to get out of.

[vundercind]

They’re notorious and have been featured in tons of episodes of TV shows (including a particularly good early-ish episode of South Park, among more-ordinary sitcoms and such) since at least the 90s. They’re a punch line.

My parents nonetheless fell for one in the early 20-teens. How they had missed this particular bit of common wisdom, I have no idea.

[VTimofeenko]

Everything happens at least twice. There actually is an established industry to supposedly help folks get out of timeshares.

[eric-hu]

When you say "to supposedly help", do you mean they actually help, or this industry is also scammers?

Asking because someone in my extended family owns a timeshare and got scammed with an exit offer. It sounded similar to the timeshare pitch itself.

[VTimofeenko]

I am very sorry to hear that and I hope they can properly escape this situation.

Maybe my opinion is biased (the media generally does not publish "everythibg is a-OK" articles), but my perception of the timeshare escape industry is that they are sketchy too.

I think this Last Week Tonight episode is very informative on the topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd2bbHoVQSM

[fmobus]

Also, there are plenty of scams in that same industry.

Timeshares: not even once.

[ztetranz]

John Oliver on timeshares:

https://youtu.be/Bd2bbHoVQSM?si=Gci5R5xrHs_ff-kw