[gruez]

>Define "bots" in a way computers can understand.

How is having a specific definition relevant to this conversation? An approximate definition of "a human using a browser to visit a site" probably suffices, without having to get into weird edge cases like "but what if they programmed lynx to visit your site at 3am when they're asleep?".

>Regular users that cloudflare (profiles) accuses of being bots. God help you if you want to block trackers or something else that's not regular.

I use ublock, resistfingerpnting, and a VPN. That probably puts me in the 95+ percentile in terms of suspiciousness. Yet the most hassle I get from cloudflare is the turnstile challenges can be solved by clicking a checkbox. Suggesting that this sort of a hurdle constitutes some sort of "criminal enterprise" is laughable.

I do occasionally get outright blocked, but I suspect that's due to the site operator blocking VPN/datacenter ASNs rather than something on cloudflare's part.

>This is part of the problem. But hey, at least they are only a process change away from charging normies too.

So they're damned if they do, damned if they do? God forbid that site operators have agency over what visitors they allow on their sites!

[AyyEye]

> How is having a specific definition relevant to this conversation?

Because it's a computer that automatically does it. That's the entire problem here. Humans are not in the loop, except collecting the paychecks.

> An approximate definition of "a human using a browser to visit a site" probably suffices

Humans are not doing the blocking. "Approximate" is not good enough when, for example, I need to go to a coffee shop and use an entirely different computer to trick cloudflare into letting me order from my longtime vendor. And I must repeat that my work computer is doing absolutely nothing interesting. My job and livelihood depend on this.

> without having to get into weird edge cases like "but what if they programmed lynx to visit your site at 3am when they're asleep?".

What about an edge case like 'using your bone stock phone to visit a site once'?

What about all the poor suckers that installed an app that loaded legal software designed specifically to use their phone's connection for scraping a la brightdata? Residential proxies are big business.

There are billions of users on the web. It is one gigantic pile of edge cases. And that's entirely the point. CF may get some right but they also get plenty wrong with no recourse (but now you may be allowed to pay them money for access).

> So they're damned if they do, damned if they do?

Yes. Their entire business model is "we have a magic crystal ball that only stops 'the wrong people'™ from your website".

> God forbid that site operators have agency over what visitors they allow on their sites!

They quite literally don't have that agency. This goes back to "define bot". There are zero websites that would want to block me from making purchases from them and yet that is exactly the result in the end. I had to change vendors for a five figure order because I was up against a deadline and couldn't get around the cloudflare block from my office, and the vendor had closed for the night so I couldn't call them and bypass the whole mess.

Afterwards we spent nearly a week trying to figure out how to let me buy from them again and they were willing to keep going back and forth with CF on my behalf but I was over it and not going to spend any more time. Now I'm using the non-CF vendor to their disappointment. So much for agency.

> I use ublock, resistfingerpnting, and a VPN. That probably puts me in the 95+ percentile in terms of suspiciousness. Yet the most hassle I get from cloudflare is the turnstile challenges can be solved by clicking a checkbox.

Good for you? I have a bone-stock computer on its own connection just to try to work around this BS and yet I still sometimes get an infinite loop where the checkbox never goes away.

When I have my VPN to our euro office on I am 100% unable to access CF sites whatsoever. Been that way for as long as I can remember.

[gruez]

>Because it's a computer that automatically does it. That's the entire problem here. Humans are not in the loop, except collecting the paychecks.

I don't see how "Humans are not in the loop" is a relevant factor for whether something is a "criminal enterprise" or not. Humans are often not in the loop in approving loans/credit cards either. That doesn't make equifax a "criminal enterprise" for blocking you from getting a loan because you can't pass a credit check. Even in jurisdictions with laws against automated decision making by computers, you can only seek human redress in specific circumstances (eg. when applying for credit), not for whether a website blocked you for being a suspected bot or not

>I need to go to a coffee shop and use an entirely different computer to trick cloudflare into letting me order parts on digikey. And I must repeat that my work computer is doing absolutely nothing interesting. My job and livelihood depend on this.

1. At least looking at the response headers, digikey.com is served by akamai, not cloudflare

2. I can visit the site just fine on commercial VPN providers. Maybe there's something extra sus about your connection/browser, but I find it hard to believe that you have to resort to getting a separate computer and making a 10 minute trek to visit a site

3. like it or not, neither cloudflare nor digikey has any obligation to serve you. They can deny you service for any reason they want, except for a very small list of exceptions (eg. race or disability). "browser/configuration looks weird" is an entirely valid reason, and them denying you service on that basis doesn't mean cloudflare is running a "protection racket".

>What about an edge case like 'using your bone stock phone to visit a site once'?

that's clearly not an edge case

>What about all the poor suckers that installed an app that loaded legal software designed specifically to use their phone's connection for scraping a la brightdata? Residential proxies are big business.

That's a false negative, not a false positive. Maybe the site operator has a right of action against cloudflare for not doing their job against such actors, but you have no standing when you're blocked and they're not.

>Yes. Their entire business model is "we have a magic crystal ball that only stops 'the wrong people'™ from your website".

And do they actually claim 100% accuracy?

>They quite literally don't have that agency.

They can go with another anti-bot vendor. Competitors such as imperva or ddos-guard use similar techniques because it's the state of the art when it comes to bot detection.

>This goes back to "define bot". There are zero websites that would want to block me from making purchases from them and yet that is exactly the result in the end. I had to change vendors for a five figure order because I was up against a deadline and couldn't get around the cloudflare block from my office, and the vendor had closed for the night so I couldn't call them and bypass the whole mess.

>Afterwards we spent nearly a week trying to figure out how to let me buy from them again and they were willing to keep going back and forth with CF on my behalf but I was over it and not going to spend any more time. Now I'm using the non-CF vendor to their disappointment. So much for agency.

I'm sorry this happened to you, but any anti-fraud/bot system is going to have false negatives and false positives. For every privacy conscious person that's making a legitimate purchase using TOR browser and delivering to a different shipping address, there's 10 other fraudsters with the same profile trying to scam the site. This is an extreme example, but neither the business or cloudflare has any obligation to serve you.

>Good for you? I have a bone-stock computer on its own connection just to try to work around this BS and yet I still sometimes get an infinite loop where the checkbox never goes away.

What OS/browser (and versions of both) are you using?

>When I have my VPN to our euro office on I am 100% unable to access CF sites whatsoever. Been that way for as long as I can remember.

sounds like their residential proxy detection (that you were asking about earlier) is working as intended then :^)

[AyyEye]

> At least looking at the response headers, digikey.com is served by akamai, not cloudflare

I edited them out because they were only one of many problem sites.

> Maybe there's something extra sus about your connection/browser, but I find it hard to believe that you have to resort to getting a separate computer and making a 10 minute trek to visit a site

Maybe half a decade ago someone had malware from my IP. Maybe my router's mac address was used by some botnet software somewhere. Maybe I'm on the same subnet as some other assholes.

> 3. like it or not, neither cloudflare nor digikey has any obligation to serve you. They can deny you service for any reason they want

The vendor in question (this one was not digikey) very explicitly wanted me as a customer.

> them denying you service on that basis doesn't mean cloudflare is running a "protection racket".

Them charging to correct their mistake is.

> that's clearly not an edge case

That's my point. I know for sure that vanilla android on t-mobile periodically gets the infinite loop in this area of my city. It usually goes away within a week but there's no rhyme or reason.

> What OS/browser (and versions of both) are you using?

I have seen it on linux windows and android.

> sounds like their residential proxy detection (that you were asking about earlier) is working as intended then :^)

I don't understand this. They have a normal ISP in a business district?

ETA: I have less issues on my home computer, which browser extension'd up, ironically enough.

[gruez]

>I edited them out because they were only one of many problem sites.

But the fact that other security providers flagged your IP/browser should be enough to conclude that cloudflare isn't engaged in some sort of "protection racket" to extract money from you?

>The vendor in question (this one was not digikey) very explicitly wanted me as a customer.

Most e-commerce vendors also want customers as well, the problem they can't tell an anonymous visitor a legitimate customer or not, so they employ security services like cloudflare to do that for them.

>Them charging to correct their mistake is.

It's unclear whether the cloudflare product actually constitutes "Them charging to correct their mistake". For one, it's unclear whether you're blocked by cloudflare or the site owner, who can also set rules for blocking/challenging users. Moreover, it's unknown whether the website owner would opt into this marketplace. Presumably they're blocking bots for fraud/anti-competition reasons. If that's the case I doubt they're going to put their sites up for scraping to make a few bucks. Finally, businesses are under no obligation to give you free appeals, so the inability for you to freely appeal doesn't constitute a "protection racket".

>vanilla android on t-mobile periodically gets the infinite loop

>I have seen it on linux windows and android.

you must have a really dodgy IP block then.

>I don't understand this. They have a normal ISP in a business district?

Its probably generating two signals associated with fraud:

1. high latency means than a proxy is being used. This is suspicious because customers typically don't VPN themselves halfway across the world, but cybercriminals trying to cover their tracks by using residential proxies do

2. "business" ISPs might get binned as "hosting" providers, which is also suspicious for similar reasons (eg. could be someone using a VPS as a proxy).

Sure, the unlucky few who accidentally does some online shopping when connected to their work VPN might get falsely flagged, but they probably figure it's a rare enough case that it's worth the loss compared to the overwhelming amount of fraudsters that fit the same pattern.