[antiterra]

> That the abused don't feel abused doesn't mean they aren't being abused. It just means they're rationalizing or denying;

Telling people you classify as abused that they are fully incapable of speaking for themselves unless they agree with you is pretty despicable, and a kissing cousin to victim blaming.

[gnaritas]

Well it's a good thing I didn't actually say that. I'll repeat... That the abused don't feel abused doesn't mean they aren't being abused. That is a statement of fact, not opinion. It doesn't in any way say they are incapable of anything, it merely points out that victims don't always realize they are being victimized; this is especially true of children, as anyone should well know.

[antiterra]

By stating that you believe spanking is never justified, it implies that, from your viewpoint, spanking is unjustified violence, aka abuse. If someone who has been spanked attempts to tell you that they do not believe they were abused, you have declared their motivation to be either rationalization or denial.

Further, when someone is debating whether or not spanking is "violent," they are speaking in the connotation of inflicting injury and harm. They do not mean it in the sense that force, such as beating an egg, is inherently violent.

I was spanked by my parents and by a grade school teacher. I think it functioned as suitable punishment in my case, and overall I was under-disciplined. Being told that I am inherently unreliable or unable to make the determination that I was abused or not is irritating and disrespectful.

I do believe current parenting consensus is that spanking has the risk (and perhaps tendency) of causing harm, and will avoid it as a method of discipline with my children.

[snowwrestler]

Spanking is demonstrably not an effective way to discipline kids. There is no measurable correlation between whether a child is spanked, and a greater level of discipline or later life outcomes. Numerous research projects have shown that spanked kids do not behave any better, and several have seemed to suggest that kids who are spanked very frequently demonstrate greater aggression and more problems with discipline later in life.

I understand that because it involves our parents and our children, this is a subject that evokes strong emotional responses. But the objective research is very clear, which is why spanking and other physical punishments are no longer part of any professional educational or child-care profession in the U.S.

In the past few decades there have been significant advances in understanding how the human mind and brain develops during childhood. The results of these advances are taught in academia (i.e. a newly minted kindergarten teacher will likely have learned about them), but poorly disseminated to parents.

The essential thing to understand is that a child is not a human. They are in the process of becoming human. So when a child breaks a rule it is not the same thing as when you break a rule. It represents a step in their development that must be guided. So discipline is not about punishment, it is about teaching and coaching.

[antiterra]

Did you not read where I stated that parenting consensus is that spanking has the risk of and tendency to cause harm? I also stated I would not be spanking my children as a result of the current understanding of its effects. Do you believe that means I am unable to express an opinion about spanking's specific effect on me?

[gnaritas]

I don't mean either/or exclusively, I mean could be. You cannot deny that some of the abused don't know they're being abused, especially in the case of children. That's the point I was trying to make and I don't think it's debatable.