you seem not to like how iran is setup, which makes it absolutely necessary that they’re able to put up a resistance should people who think like you attack them. as far as the universe goes, many beliefs about ways of human society organization exist. democracy works for one, not for the other. in fact, democracy has been the undoing of my home country. but it has made us subservient to the west, so naturally the west ‘supports’ our democracy. i wish we’d have some sense to re-examine this strange political experiment of ours, that’s barely 50 years old, and has given us nothing but misery. if we do, we might face opposition from the democracy shmemocracy faithfuls, in which case being able to violently resist any attack will be important.
> in fact, democracy has been the undoing of my home country
Are you sure that it's the democracy which is the cause of your country's trouble?
If we consider the counterfactual scenario where your country was not democratic, instead ruled either by some autocrat, theocracy, military junta or something similar, how would that go? While you can find examples of dysfunctional democracies, it still appears to have a better success rate than non-democratic systems.
don’t get me wrong, i strongly believe that when a people are fit for it, democracy is the best political organization. but they have to be fit for it. the west transitioned into democracy when they were fit for it but are gradually transitioning out and hiding real political power behind government agencies that are unaffected by the whims and caprices of the crowd (aka electorates). miniature monarchies/tyrannies/etc reign in the west now. in my opinion, this makes sense and is invariably better especially in the world we currently live in. eg the united states cannot allow a series of bad elections to lead to its annihilation.
Well, I get that democracy does not automatically mean rainbows and unicorns and can get dysfunctional.
My question is - what's the alternative which would work better for your country? Looking at your profile, you're from Africa, where the typical alternative is either a military junta or a theocracy. Why do you think that those would lead to better outcomes in your country?
monarchy. we have a lot more history with this organization. there still exists a strong allegiance to the tribe (original nation) over the independent, makeshift nation (ie contiguous pieces of land formerly ruled by a colonial master).
> democracy has been the undoing of my home country ... given us nothing but misery
From what I see around the world for democracy to work it needs a certain degree of social cohesion, which some countries lack. The prevalence of some characteristics (ex: fanaticism, tribalism, corruption) are incompatible with democracy, and will ruin shortly attempts to have "working democracies".
Some western countries (not all, guess is obvious who :-p) tended to think simplistically that if the system works for them it will work for everybody so they try to "impose it".
What I have to admit now is that while this does not seem to always work, I don't consider "others" as having a much better alternative either.
> Some western countries (not all, guess is obvious who :-p) tended to think simplistically that if the system works for them it will work for everybody so they try to "impose it".
It is amazing tho how they always impose it choosing the corrupt leaders that sell all state Enterprise and national resources for pennies to said western country "multinationals"
I lived through a change from "authoritarianism" to "some kind of democracy". Many of the people in the country that took advantage of the population before (by being authoritarian) were the ones that sold the enterprises and resources and then used the money to build new enterprises.
Did that change much for me as an individual on the spot? Not much - they were people taking advantage before an after and most people were poor.
Did it change the possibilities on long term? It did. 20 years later there are more developments and opportunities than before under the "authoritarian" regime. Is it equally spread and for everybody? No. But neighbor countries that did not go through the change have it worse...
I am sure not all countries have this trajectory, but some do, YMMV
That’s a lot of words to argue agent the right for humans to self-determine their own governance and fate. Sincerely, I see no compelling argument that can be made in support of the restrictions Iran places upon its citizens. Please make one, with specifics, if you’re interested in discussing it.
If you truly believe that people who do not follow the laws of your religion will go to eternal hell, it does make a lot of sense, and really is completely morally sound, to push others into following the laws using any means necessary.
I'm not religious myself. But in my country, if someone is actively suicidal (say they are standing on top of a building, planning to jump) they are (forcefully) stopped. I think that's a good thing. Now, of I was religious, I would believe that sinning (and therefore going to hell) would be way way way worse to do to oneself, even when compared to suicide. So just like I agree with forcefully preventing someone from following their will to commit suicide, I would probably agree with forcefully preventing people from sinning.
If you are religious (and believe that sinning = hell), these laws make a lot of sense. Perhaps they should be even harsher.
Firstly, you conflate your personal feelings with the rule of law. You may personally agree or disagree with preventing people from committing suicide, or violating religious norms, but that should be completely separate from whether you think the government should enforce your personal belief on people who believe otherwise. In a democracy, the government is not there to enforce your beliefs, it is there to prevent other people's beliefs from overriding your right to have your own.
[edit: This is also an aspect of democracy that is not well understood in countries with a history of authoritarian or majoritarian rule. Democracies are an engine of creating higher efficiency and flourishing because they tend to protect minority views and are thus open to constant change and debate, which in turn are the drivers of economic growth. In authoritarian minds, change and debate are viewed as hindrances or dangers to the status quo; thus such societies stagnate. I'm practically explaining how Lebanon can't generate a home-made pager whilst a similarly sized country next door and carved up from the Ottoman empire at the same time... which prizes individuality and debate... can, well... nevermind]
Secondly, you make a false assumption that just because a society agrees with you on one thing, you must agree with it on everything else. It would be perfectly rational to be against both the death penalty and against abortion, yet many people are for one and against the other. You make a case that if you lived in a society where the morality pointed a certain way, it would be natural for yourself just to go along without questioning its hypocrisy. That is, quite literally, you are making a case for not thinking for yourself as an individual or seeing anything wrong with the contradictions of whatever society you live in.
It is our duty as human beings to point out the contradictions and hypocrisy in ourselves and our societies, to improve them. You are making the most retrograde, anti-liberal case possible by saying you would not question the values you were surrounded by.
> In a democracy, the government is not there to enforce your beliefs, it is there to prevent other people's beliefs from overriding your right to have your own.
That's why I gave the example of forceful suicide prevention. That is the law in my democratic, non-theocratic country.
Tell me how forcing someone not to commit suicide differs from forcing someone not to sin.
In my view it's the same: You are limiting someone else's liberty; forcing them not to do something you consider a grave mistake.
You personally may view personal liberty as more important: If you think people should have the liberty to commit suicide, it would be morally consistent for you to think people should have the liberty to sin.
I do not believe people should have the liberty to commit suicide. So if I was religious, and believed sinning to be a mistake far worse than suicide, it would be morally consistent for me to believe people should not have the liberty to sin.
> Secondly, you make a false assumption that just because a society agrees with you on one thing, you must agree with it on everything else.
> You are making the most retrograde, anti-liberal case possible by saying you would not question the values you were surrounded by.
I don't know where you got this from. I do question the values of society. It is my very own personal opinion that we should legally prevent people from making certain obvious mistakes.
(And yes, I am very anti-liberal in that sense. Not only do I agree with forcing people to wear seatbelts and not to commit suicide, I would even support banning caffeine.)
If I was religious, I would consider sinning to be the most obvious and most serious mistake of all. Hence, I would try to legally prevent people from making this mistake.
I find it very understandable that a religious government makes sinning illegal.
his so-called personal beliefs are shared and deliberately engendered through education. one may say, i think suicide should be prevented at all cost. but when they do so they’re not expressing a personal opinion but rather the result of their education and training. and education is conducted with the law in mind. ‘personal opinion’ from an adult who has been subjected to education is usually a misnomer. they’re not coming to it from independently perusing any data. so yes, the government is there to enforce your beliefs, the same ones they gave you.
democracy isn’t a minority rule, and conjuring up a so-called ‘majoritarianism’ is almost a dirty trick. the standout symbol of democracy is the election where the popular, by a mere enumeration of votes, wins the day. we are not allowed to disqualify ‘unqualified’ votes. do you have an example of a democracy where the minority wins?
> it is our duty as human beings to point out the contradictions and hypocrisy in ourselves and our societies.
not essentially our responsibility qua human beings but of heretics. the mechanisms for this sort of analysis and meta analysis are not by default available to all human beings. they’re acquired through education and through use. so whose responsibility is it to critique the current order? because most of us are blind to it. in the many challenges we face daily, bodily survival takes precedence, and when the current order doesn’t interfere in threatening ways, we can acquiesce.
But see, Jesus taught that sin isn't just what we do. It starts in our hearts, and then what's inside spills out.
Even if you're the government, you can't write a law or enforce a law against, say, adultery. You can stop - or at least reduce - the external behavior. But you can't change hearts by an external law. You just create people who are different on the outside than they are on the inside. "Hypocrites" is a term for that, which comes from the Greek word for "actors" - people who pretend to be something they're not.
That's not going to keep them from hell. It might keep them from jail, but that's not the same thing.
all peoples are not the same. this is an error of abstraction. if you were to enumerate attributes of a society fit for democracy, what would you require of its people? do all peoples already possess these?
The totalitarian Theocracy is 40 years old- one generation. Before that it was and always has been the Persians. Intellectual powerhouse of the middle east.
Cairo-Bhagdad-Teheran - that was were its at, before they ran into the regions resource limit and adapted a religion that is great at eternal, zero-sum wars and paranoid delusions about external influence and bad at everything else.
I’m aware of the history of Iran, and your comment is entirely irrelevant. I can’t celebrate the advances of a country that’s openly hostile towards fundamental human rights. Nor do I think anyone else should, either.
> before they ran into the regions resource limit and adapted a religion
They didn't 'run into the regions [sic] resource limit and adapt a religion'; said religion was forced upon them by the sword. Iran's state religion (if you could call it that) was Zoroastrianism. There are zero Zoroastrians left in Iran; most of them have fled to... India. And said religion ripped through the Indian subcontinent, too; it is why Pakistan and Bangladesh are separate nations today.
God (or Allah?), your view of this religion is so biased and warped, I don't even know why I'm wasting time thinking maybe I can point some despicable idiot to some enlightment.
Ever consider that it's humans that are warped, and they abuse any institution possible for their own selfish means? Many religions fall victim to this, including those you view more favorably than Islam.
The idea is perfect, its claim to power is it being well suited to govern humans, which it declares flawed and warped. Thus making the idea flawed and warped and unsuited to govern actual humans.
the nation is oppressed, there were over 800 executions in 2023, most political. It wages wars through proxies that destroy lives in the locations where they are active. It has tortured and beaten up its citizens for as much as wearing a hijab wrongly. Are you actually an Islamist Revolutionary Guard or aligned with North Korea or Putin’s government to say that this is awesome?