[nahumfarchi]

Proportionality is at the center of defining a war crime.

"The principle of proportionality (Article 51(5) (b) API) states that even if there is a clear military target it is not possible to attack it if the expected harm to civilians, or civilian property, is excessive in relation to the expected military advantage."

https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/resources/international-humanita...

So, the case that Israel has to make here is that the expected millitary advantage from the operation exceeds the collateral damage. The fact that civilians died doesn't automatically make it a war crime from an international law point of view.

[mempko]

I don't believe those children who died care about definitions. In fact they don't care much about anything anymore since they are dead.

[dijit]

Appeal to emotion is harder to take seriously when Hezbollah rockets killed 12 children this year alone.

[beedeebeedee]

Appeal to not be emotional is even harder to take seriously when Hezbollah rockets killed 12 children and Israel has killed 10,000 children this year alone.

[dijit]

You’ve put me in a bad position, because by telling you you’re wrong you will interpret it as if its reasonable.

First, we’re talking about Lebanon and its population, lets not muddy the waters further by suggesting that Hamas and Gaza are part of that conflict right now. But if we did, as far as I can make out, for the entire duration of the war since 10/7 there has been a total of 7,500 children identified as being killed. Sadly that number is not backed up by any independent source and unfortunately Hamas has been known to inflate these numbers.

Nonetheless, it is a tragedy.

An entirely unrelated tragedy to the 12:1 child murder ratio of Hezbollah vs IDF this year, and under entirely different circumstances.

I would prefer more interventions in Gaza to mirror this one in its precision and lack of civilian casualties.

I’m certain that you would prefer no intervention happen at all, which is where we will have to fundamentally disagree and part ways.

[beedeebeedee]

> as far as I can make out ... there has been a total of 7,500 children killed

I said 10,000 for this year, which is lower than the amount coming from Gaza. You low balled it much further. Hamas might be accused for inflating numbers, but Israeli apologists are actively deflating that number. Regardless, the numbers are staggering.

> I'm certain that you would prefer no intervention ...

Firstly, you don't know me but have immediately filled in who you believe I am based on your expectations. You should reflect on that (and how much you are creating your own world), because those prejudices are exactly what motivate the hate that drives these conflicts.

I would like to see intervention in Gaza. Number one, would be to stop the indiscriminate bombing of children. Number two, would be to provide relief to all of the people who have lost their homes and livelihood, who have been maimed and are starving. Number three, would be to resolve the displacement of the Palestinians in a just manner. Number four, would be judicial proceedings against anyone (Palestinian or Israeli) who committed war crimes.

Israel cannot be bombing civilians. It is a war crime. Gaza is not a sovereign state, but a displaced people living in Israel. If Israel is too weak to go in and arrest criminals who commit heinous crimes, then it needs to contend with the problem and take a different approach to how it deals with the Palestinian people.

[dijit]

I can find literally no source for 10.000+ outside of the UN "estimating" it, the nearest I could find was 7.500 and that's not verified (and old). I'm not trying to downplay anything and I resent the implicaiton.

I'm perfectly content holding Israel to account for their numerous crimes, but that becomes extremely difficult to do when you have literal terrorists doing everything they can to make things as bloody and cantankerous as humanly possible to cast shadows at Israel.

Bombing civilians is not technically a war crime in of itself, people like to use the word war crime without actually fucking reading what are war crimes, such as not identifying yourself as military, hiding in the population, using medical buildings as cover and so forth.

Israeli's settling the west-bank and blockading aid under the guise of "the more material they have, the more they will use against us" is condemdable; but when 5,000 rockets suddenly launch from Gaza and a ground force invasion kills over a thousand people -- people reasonably start to think that Israel has a point, and all my criticisms against Israel suddenly start to look very impotent.

Where I get annoyed is that people have decided that terrorists are good, actually, despite clearly throwing gay people off of roofs and engaging in what are actual war crimes.

In fact, the number I go from my source was also just Gaza's health ministry telling the UN; it's never been independently verified as far as I can tell; https://www.npr.org/2024/05/15/1251265727/un-gaza-death-toll...

[lm28469]

You're almost there buddy... people criticising israel here are also criticising hezbollah for war crimes... you don't have to pick a side and close your eyes on their actions

[dijit]

They're not though.

AOC being the most prominent example that comes to mind immediately.

[nahumfarchi]

Their death is tragic, but such is war unfortunately... Lebanon is participating in this one whether they like to or not.

That aside, these definitions were written for a reason, even if they have no appeal to the current victims.