[Mistletoe]

The thing is though that I want to move to Europe precisely for all these same reasons. And I want to do it with my USA dollars and wealth that enabled it, so I do recognize the dissonance there.

Are Europeans happier due to all of the reasons you listed? Do you enable wealth to grow at the expense of the happiness of its residents if you implement the reforms needed to “move fast and break things”? Are Americans happier due to this wealth and entrepreneurship? I don’t think so, they seem pretty miserable right now. Overconsumption and having too much has made this generation have a lower life expectancy than the last, a stunning result.

It would be unwise to pass these changes and enrich a few wealthy Europeans at the top and instill serfdom again and wealth inequality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

[clarionbell]

Problem is that it's not sustainable. We can't defend ourselves, our economies are de-industrializing, we have right and left radical taking over political spectrum all the while our pension and healthcare systems are moving ever closer to a breaking point.

The careful approach may have brought as pretty far. But isn't working anymore. It hasn't worked since 2008 at least.

[silverquiet]

> We can't defend ourselves, our economies are de-industrializing, we have right and left radical taking over political spectrum all the while our pension and healthcare systems are moving ever closer to a breaking point.

Other than the defense part, the same could be said for the US.

[Workaccount2]

The US has very rosy economic future projections compared to Europe, and frankly the rest of the world. Don't be fooled by sensational headlines and chronically online college kids complaining.

[gota]

Rosy in comparison to the rest of the world - maybe

Rosy in comparison to 1976~2000 - no

I'm under the impression it's been (sort of) proven (but I have no source) that the major reason for 'college kids complaining' is precisely because of the perceived loss in quality of life, purchasing power and access to {healtchare, safety, community, third spaces} when compared to prior generations

[aesch]

I'm glad you mentioned 'perceived' loss in quality of life. I think that is what is being argued, does the perception meet the reality?

It could be that the major reason for 'college kids perception of loss in quality of life' is that the rise of ad-driven media, as opposed to the previous generation's subscription model, leads to more sensationalized news to drive clicks. Combine that with online forums (echo chambers) that make it easier to complain to a sympathetic audience. College kids are also more susceptible to recency bias, they didn't live through previous times of uncertainty and have no memories of cold wars or the turbulence that previous generations lived through.

[djhn]

To me it seems that even software engineers and bankers in US and UK, at least those who don’t have parental support, will struggle to ever attain the things that are achievable to moderately ambitious european kids from the lowest wealth and income deciles at 25-30 in a wide range of professions: 40 hour workweeks, comfortable middle class lifestyle, home ownership in appreciating, investment grade old real estate in historical city centres.

[silverquiet]

Do the future projections suggest that those gains will be shared equitably or lead to greater happiness and life outcomes for Americans?

[Workaccount2]

These are economic projections, not sociopolitical ones.

The harvest looks very likely to increase all else being equal. How it is distributed and how the farm is managed in the future is another matter.

[silverquiet]

Ah yes, if we all work hard, then the bosses can buy another Ferrari next year.

[RGamma]

The US as a statistic, perhaps. As a collection of people... not sure, they seem pretty angry already.

[archagon]

A MAGA victory, now or in the future, can burn it all to the ground. The political situation is incredibly volatile.

[chairmansteve]

Not sure that the US has worked since 2008 either. The streets are full of homeless. Half the population is angry enough (about what I'm not sure), that they are about to elect a self described dictator.

[aziaziazi]

Your concerns are legitimate but the dream of an ever growing production isn’t sustainable either. But that is ok: not being the most powerful within a group is totally fine.

[pfannkuchen]

On the defense issue, I don’t really see where the threat would come from.

Russia isn’t in such a great place militarily either. It would be incredibly culturally strange for China to invade that far away and I don’t know that their military is configured for that anyway. They may influence and sabotage but would never attack Europe militarily IMO. Middle East and North Africa states don’t pose much of a threat still in an actual military conflict.

Who does that leave to defend against? America?

[carlosjobim]

> Who does that leave to defend against?

Maybe the criminal gangs, who already have capacity rivaling and sometimes surpassing European governments?

Or maybe killing, gang raping, shooting, bombing and looting is not an actual military conflict, because the soldiers don't wear uniforms, and thus nothing for the busy Europeans to mind.

[pfannkuchen]

Those are big problems, but the issue is a lack of will, not a lack of military strength. If the will situation changed those threats could be gone within a week.

[leadingthenet]

We are getting old, are having few if any children, yet our social contract is built on a series of Ponzi schemes that become unmaintainable under such circumstances. The temporary band-aid fix of mass migration is seemingly bringing many old and proud nations to a boiling point. We like our regulations, we like our welfare state, we like our extensive holidays and work life balance, and we’re not willing to budge on any of them, really. There’s too many contradictions in the system now. I’m not sure what it would take for this “will” to materialise, but I’m afraid if it does happen, it’ll come about due to some form of neo-fascism than a glorious rejuvenation of our current political order.

If the will doesn’t materialise, well, that’s exactly what civilisational collapse looks like in the historical record.

Either way, I’m not really seeing the optimistic outlook for Europe.

[carlosjobim]

That's laughable. Or really, it's tragicomic. If you don't have the will power, you have nothing. How can you not have the will to defend your civilians against the most horrible crimes and looting from organized criminals? Saying that you could fix it if you only wanted sounds like a guy in a bar saying he could beat you if only he wanted. Sure.

In South America they do put in the military against criminal gangs. Why don't the Europeans? Especially considering that the criminal gangs there are predominately consisting of foreigners, meaning they are de-facto a military matter.

[moi2388]

I suppose the truth/ideal situation would be somewhere in the middle.

But the inability to capitalise on the tech sector, difficult regulations as barrier to entry, and a lot of changing rules regarding innovation, making things “green” and environmental and consumer safety does give a high burden to industry when competing with entities like China and the USA which do not have these restrictions.

I think a long-term plan regarding regulations which are clear upfront and don’t constantly change, as well as massive tax benefits to new corporations could provide an economical boost.

Having said that, I am not an economist, so I’d love someone with more knowledge to give their 2 cents. (Tax free, of course)

[izacus]

My two cents are that EU needs to follow USA with aggressive protectionism to offset the regulation.

[AlchemistCamp]

Follow? The EU has been more more protectionist for decades in everything from agriculture to cars.

If you look at the WTO’s published data, the mean tariffs in the EU are 5.0% while even now, the US is at just 3.2%.

https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/statis_e/tariff_profiles_l...

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

It's a shame that the EU is painted as a failure unless they have low taxes and industrious go-getters trashing their system.

Their awesomeness doesn't show on a balance sheet so it might as well not exist.

[throwaway48540]

I live in EU. What awesomeness? There are places with better social and health services while having less taxes and regulations. The regulations are making actual day to day life hard for everyone, directly as well as indirectly. EU is surviving, but I definitely wouldn't - and don't know anyone who would - say it's thriving. Most of my friends who work in software and other hitech are planning their move to US.

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

Life expectancy? Happiness?

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2016/02/25/happines...

[throwaway48540]

Try to talk to people instead of relying on some abstract numbers.

"Yeah I'm so happy I have a job paying 500 USD per month, and I am so happy my 1.5-room flat rent is just 350" is a very common thing to hear where I live. The tax rate is 35% btw.

Also, try to find newer statistics at least. 2016 was around the local maxima, everything went to shit - very noticeably - during and after covid.

[surgical_fire]

I do. Most people I talk to are doing fine. Nothing close to what you described.

[7bit]

> Try to talk to people instead of relying on some abstract numbers.

Because anecdotal evidence is better than empirically researched data? LOL

[renewiltord]

No. That's normal. Getting rich and moving to a place where labour is cheap is a pretty good strategy.