[cdogl]

Without universal suffrage I think the comparison between modern democracies and these examples is apples and oranges. The voters in Rome and Sparta were a small elite, so their “democracy” is more like a novel form of power sharing in an otherwise bog standard system.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Without universal suffrage I think the comparison between modern democracies and these examples is apples and oranges

Universal suffrage is an ideal entirely reliant on how the denominator is defined. Delineating the polity (i.e., polis) is an institution in democratic exercise--we traditionally punt this question to that of citizenship.

[BlueTemplar]

Yes, but I think everyone agrees that non-adults shouldn't be allowed to vote (being dependent on their parents), while if a country has too big of a chunk of its adult population without the right to vote (think if Quatar was a democracy, because citizenship is so restricted there), it would not count as "universal suffrage" ?

(On the opposite, you have countries where you can vote in local elections even if you do NOT have citizenship.)

[JumpCrisscross]

> but I think everyone agrees

Of course we do. Because it’s convention. But not everyone within a border geometry is a citizen. And why a border geometry is what it is usually relies on other questions.