[aguaviva]

Why don't you give an example of country that failed miserable with millions of deaths because of too much free markets.

The beauty of capitalism is that it works (or seems to work for some people, for the time being) by externalizing its true costs to other countries, other social strata -- and indeed far into the future.

Though mortality rates seem not to have risen (and may in fact declined) in the U.S. during the peak depression years (1930-1933) -- as a global phenomenon, the collapse of a system based on "too much free markets" is generally seen as one of the primary drivers of WW2, so we would have to attribute some share of its 70-85 million fatalities this market-driven collapse as well.

And not just by accident. There's also the fact that "free market" interests and Western financial support were key to Hitler and Mussolini's rise to power in the first place, as the former saw the latter as a perhaps unsavory but ultimately necessary bulwark against the rising spectre of a global socialist movement (whether on the Bolshevik model or otherwise).

Plus the whole European colonial project in Asia, Africa and the Americas, and the several hundred million deaths that it brought to the table. Though to be fair, this wasn't so much a matter of any collapse of the free market system of the time -- but rather of it working exactly as it was intended, from the very start.

And of course now we're headed for a much larger disaster with likely at least as many hundred millions of deaths looming on the horizon -- in the form of climate change and its attendant disruptions, also very much a direct result of "too much free markets".

So there you go.

[WalterBright]

> The beauty of capitalism is that it works (or seems to work for some people, for the time being) by externalizing its true costs to other countries, other social strata -- and indeed far into the future.

Are there any sustainable socialist economies by any metric?

> European colonial project

Colonialism is not free market.

> also very much a direct result of "too much free markets"

Again, communist countries are the most polluted ones. The reason is straightforward - their economies produced so little, they couldn't afford environmental protection costs.

[aguaviva]

Are there any sustainable socialist economies by any metric?

China has hit it out of the park, I think it's quite fair to say. (Could easily name a whole bunch more, but gotta keep this short. It's also a moot subject, per my last item below).

Colonialism is not free market.

That's the thing -- "free market" societies have never really been free, once externalities are accounted for. But the multi-century European colonial project was no mere externality. Its genesis, ideology and economics were inseparable from the development of Western-style capitalism as we know it.

Again, communist countries are the most polluted ones. The reason is straightforward - their economies produced so little, they couldn't afford environmental protection costs.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. But this also gets into a much more important topic we've been leaving out: there's no dichotomy between "socialism" and "capitalism" -- and never was. Nearly every modern, large-scale economy has been a working hybrid of both systems.

Even the good ole' USA.

[WalterBright]

China abandoned communism and turned free markets. That's why they "hit it out of the park".

> "free market" societies have never really been free

Of course. But the free'er they are, the better they work.

> has been a working hybrid of both systems

The socialist part flounders along, supported by taxes on the free market. The bigger the socialist part, the worse the economy as a whole performs.

[aguaviva]

China abandoned communism and turned free markets.

We weren't talking about communism, but rather socialism. Also, its markets are very far from free.

That's all I have time for. Good luck.

[nec4b]

>> or seems to work for some people, for the time being

It seems to work for any country that embraced free market ideas the same way socialist policies predictably don't work in any country that tried them.

You are seriously claiming WW2, colonialism and climate change is a direct consequence of people having too much choice? If only Germany had a strong dictator preventing people to be too free to choose, oh wait,...

[aguaviva]

Of "people" having too much choice, no.

The vast majority of folks have comparatively few meaningful choices available to them. About things like Android vs. iPhone, sure. But about things that actually matter -- like the fact that they have to work so hard all their lives; and that they probably have to drive a car to get there; that the oceans are filling up with microplastics, and their drinking water with something called PFAS that very few people had even heard of until very recently, and so on -- not all that much.

What I mean is that these bad things are the result of centuries of the elites of these partially "free" societies having too many choices available to them.

Or more specifically: of not having to account for the true costs of their choices.

[nec4b]

Do you think the elites of central planned economies are accountable for true cost of their choices?

[aguaviva]

They aren't either, but that's a different topic.