[immibis]

Device manufacturers just want windows to run. And why wouldn't they? They sell the devices with windows. If windows doesn't use S3 then S3 never gets tested, whether it's present or not. So it doesn't work, whether it's present or not, and you can't use it, whether it's present or not.

[Arnt]

What's the market share of windows on laptops these days, 20% perhaps? I don't know, but I know that Chromebooks and Macos are ahead, far ahead.

Once upon a time, there were fifty times as many Windows laptops as Linux (by which I mean debian, mint, etc) and Linux was ignorable. Now the factor is closer to ten, and I find it difficult to believe that device manufacturers simply ignore that. If they don't support S3, there likely is a better reason than the dominance of Windows.

[Woeps]

Might I ask where you get these numbers from?

I don't like using Windows, and I would like them to be a smaller player. But if I search for "desktop" operating systems share world wide I get numbers that are way way different.

some show that Windows is around 70%.

[nine_k]

I read "close to ten" as ten Windows machines per one Linux machine, so Windows would be 91%. 70% would be terrific news, mote than one fifth.

[Arnt]

91% of what? Windows has been losing market share to tablets and macs.

Anyway, if you as CTO tell the CEO that testing with Linux will get you access to x% of the market, the CEO answer will obviously depend on x. As Windows loses market share to tablets and macs, x increases, and it becomes less plausible to suggest that vendors are simply ignoring Linux because it's small.

[rfoo]

> Windows has been losing market share to tablets and macs.

We are talking about laptops. Not tablets.

Windows has been losing market share to Macbook-s at about one percent each year, so good luck reaching your 20% in your lifetime.

[Arnt]

GP talked about the choices of device manufacturers. If device manufacturers consider the sales potential for a new laptop model, are they going to ignore the competition by tablets? How about convertibles or tablets with a keyboard?

Consumers consider them somewhat interchangeable ("I bought a Surface to replace my old laptop"), so they IMO can't be excluded. And if you don't exclude them, then the share of windows laptops is now so low that adding linux support is a noticeable increase in the sales potential of that hardware.

Device manufacturers are quite cynical IMO. Would you personally take on extra testing burden to increase the sales potential for a new model by 0.25%? 0.5%? 1%? 2%? 4%? 8%? I postulate that the device manufacturers wouldn't bother for the numbers at the low end, but if they don't do it now, then they have a better reason than "windows doesn't require it" (quoting from GP).

[consteval]

> We are talking about laptops. Not tablets.

I'd argue that the deficiencies in Windows as a laptop OS has led to some people choosing iPads and the like when they would've chosen a Windows laptop.

Obviously, a tablet and a laptop have divergent usecases, but there's some overlap. And for those consumers that exist in the overlap, I think many (maybe most?) would rather choose an iPad.

Microsoft kind of saw the writing on the walls with this and that's how we got the whole Windows 8 fiasco.

[Arnt]

From the visitors to a large company's web sites. High-traffic sites, general public with a little bit of skew towards high earners, nothing can be named.

[Woeps]

Reading your other comments I see where you're getting from. And if you're indeed adding phones and tables Apple and MS are both at a ~20% (android has an overwhelming +50% by the way) from the same sources I looked at before.

If you just look at "desktop/laptop" Windows still reigns supreme.

Now the question is could be: should you include those for this discussion or not?

Yes because lots of people use them. No because the conversation was about laptops.

regardless, I now understand your point

[mananaysiempre]

> I know that Chromebooks and Macos are ahead, far ahead [of Windows].

Perhaps in the US, though I doubt it. Chromebooks are not even sold in a lot of places. Apple products are much more expensive (relatively and absolutely) in the rest of the world.

[Arnt]

So what?

Pretend that you know someone at your bank who can answer the question "what devices do people use for your online banking?" You don't need to really ask, you already know the answer: For a while it was overwhelmingly Windows on PCs/laptops, now Windows has been pushed to a minority position by smartphones, tablets and macbooks.

You might say that those don't count, but I think that for a device manufacturer they do count. I have private and work smartphones and laptops, mine are made by three different manufacturers, all three make both phones, tablets and laptops. AFAICT that's typical. There are exceptions (such as Dell) but overall, the markets overlap so much that most manufacturers need to regard it as one market with different nïches.

[wavemode]

They are not one market, in any sense. The vast majority of adults in the country own both a computer and a phone. I'm not sure how they could possibly be treated as competing with one another.

Within the market of personal computers (not the fictional market of personal computers combined with other devices that aren't personal computers), Windows has very dominant market share.

[consteval]

> They are not one market, in any sense.

I agree, but there is a venn diagram here. Many use cases are covered by both products. As time goes on, the venn diagram gets closer to a circle. An iPhone of 2008 was a niche device, but nowadays you can complete 99% of tasks completely on an iPhone (yes I made up 99%, just pretend it's some number higher than it once was).

I think, for most adults, their primary personal computer is a smartphone. Many, not sure of the numbers here, don't own a laptop or desktop at all. They may have one for work, though.

[Arnt]

I'm curious… if many uses cases are covered by two products, don't those two products compete? If two products compete, how can you think that they're not in the same market in any sense?

To my mind, my ultralight private laptop is more similar to a many tablets and two-in-ones than to the 16" Macbook Pro that I was issued from my employer. Saying that the two laptops are in the same market and the tablets/two-in-ones aren't in that same market… just doesn't make sense to me.