[halicarnassus]

In the comments here I read a lot about if this is whistleblowing or not, or if disciplinary measures are warranted for an employee "badmouthing" an employer's client while not having an official mandate to speak in public, while mostly ignoring the threats made by a government official.

This is exactly the problem why the world sucks so hard.

The engineer, certainly knowledgeable in this field, made a measured public remark, which could have saved lives. He has done nothing wrong, because he didn't claim to speak on behalf of his employer, and has the right to speak his mind as a person. In public, and with a lot of reach.

The government official, however, applied unconstitutional pressure to get the engineer fired and threatened his employer to lose business. Humanly very low and damaging to future public rail infrastructure, if a capable company is not allowed to provide services anymore and therefore most likely to increase prices through diminished competition.

If anyone should lose their job over this matter, it clearly should be the UK rail minister.

[smcl]

> while not having an official mandate to speak in public

Gareth Dennis has been a public figure for a while, appearing on BBC News a few times. So there was apparently a provision for this in his contract with Systra: https://x.com/GarethDennis/status/1829053692508623154

[keyshapegeo99]

Systra also lauded his media appearances on their website: https://web.archive.org/web/20240829120751/https://www.systr...

> [Gareth's] passion and enthusiasm for all things rail are well-known across the sector through his weekly #Railnatter podcast and as a regular national press rail commentator

[smcl]

Ah that's an interesting revelation. But yeah totally unsurprising really, he's very good at talking in plain, accessible English about rail-related matters that might otherwise cause people to glaze over and ignore. And it's not like he's ever been a shit-stirrer either - in the interview in question he was pretty reasonable. It's just that this guy Lord Hendy has taken a dislike to NR being called out and started a little vendetta against Dennis.

[n4r9]

What's great about this is that instead of covering up the issue, Henry's behaviour has caused it to blow up and become way more visible. I certainly hadn't heard about any of this until reading OP.

[smcl]

True, but it's kind of a shame we're dependent on those emails being leaked. If they hadn't been then it'd be Dennis' claim that someone in the government pressured his employer to get him sacked. Which doesn't hold a great deal of weight and could easily be dismissed by a government keen to cover its ass.

[XCabbage]

What aspect of the UK's nebulous "constitution" do you claim was violated here? (Or are you just reflexively/thoughtlessly saying "unconstitutional" because it would be a First Amendment violation in the USA?)

[Tor3]

Well, the UK doesn't have a constitution, so technically you're correct in mentioning that, but it should also be said that something like this happening in Europe is beyond shocking. It sounds like an April's fool joke. But isn't.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

Not "Europe". The UK. They do things differently in the continent.

[Tor3]

The UK is firmly in Europe. Always been.

[hayd]

The UK is in Europe.

[akira2501]

> it clearly should be the UK rail minister.

Absolutely. He's guilty of precisely what he complains about. He suggests that this engineer is implicating the "safety of Network Rail" whereas he's just implicating the safety of a _single decision_.

Instead of reacting to a single statement the minister has decided to implicate his entire job. Which is madness. He should be deeply ashamed of how he abused his position, and quite frankly, for his inability to accept and react appropriately to criticism.

A giant baby if I've ever seen one.

[rsynnott]

I suspect the minister may be an ex-minister soon, alright; it’s not a good look, and he’s only been in the job a month or so, so replacing wouldn’t be a huge deal.

[jonp888]

> he’s only been in the job a month or so, so replacing wouldn’t be a huge deal

He's way, way than more than just some guy who has been rail minister for a month, he's one of the most respected, perhaps the most respected transport executive in Britain(at least until yesterday). He's not an elected politician, he has worked professionally in rail transportation since 1975.

For 10 years he was Chief Executive of Transport for London which runs all public transport in London. Following that, for the past 10 years he was and still is Chairman of Network Rail, the organisation which is responsible for the entire British Railway Network. It's in this capacity that he sent the letter, not as a minister.

Unless this turns into some huge scandal, which seems unlikely, he'll be fine.

[prmoustache]

But he is working as a mafia leader. I don't think that is the kind of chief executive a democratic country needs.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

The United Kingdom is a monarchy [1]. Lord Peter Hendy is an un-elected member of the House of Lords.

______________

[1] More specifically, a Unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy. Except it doesn't really have a constitution.

[mattmanser]

For non-UK residents, this is a perfectly normal thing that happens regularly[1]. For example the last government did it to David Cameron, who was not an elected MP at the time he was made foreign secretary.

To become a minister, that person needs to be an official politician. Part of the House of Commons or the House of Lords. So if a sitting UK government wants an expert in their cabinet who is not an MP, they ennoble them. They make the person a Lord to get them to be able to operate officially as a minister in the government.

For a fuller explanation see: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/direct-m...

[1] i.e. a seemingly weird thing that the British do because of old traditions

[alephnerd]

He's also a mid-level minister, so it's pretty easy to can him.

Most Ministers are just political appointees anyhow - the actual work is done by the Civil Service.

[ypzhang2]

Except it’s not government related action.

This is what a current official did prior to him becoming the minister while an executive of a rail company.

So the analysis and the discussion below all stem from a faulty premise

[tomatocracy]

"An executive of of a rail company" is not really the full picture here. Network Rail is state-controlled and a government minister appoints the Chairman.

[callamdelaney]

There is no constitution here, your existence and rights as a British citizen is at the convenience of the state.

[graemep]

Its not that simple.

There is a body of constitutional law. There is extensive law governing what powers ministers have - powers are granted to them by legislation.

There are human rights granted by law and treaty. Everything from some clauses of the Magna Carta that are still in force https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofp... to the European Convention on Human Rights.

[philwelch]

And thanks to parliamentary supremacy any and all of those protections can be repealed by a simple majority of the House of Commons.

[graemep]

True, but that is a long way from how I read the comment I replied too

[philwelch]

In countries that actually have a strong constitution—the US is the primary example though I hope others exist—the Constitution itself is the supreme law of the land and is, by design, difficult to amend. When legislatures pass laws that exceed the bounds of the Constitution, the courts strike down those laws as null and void.

In that sense, Britain does not have a constitution. Obviously it has a constitution in some sense, because there is always some set of laws, norms, traditions, and historical precedents that constitute the basis of government. But this is a much weaker sense of the term. For instance, the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 was a “constitutional” law that supposedly made it impossible to call a snap election, but a snap election was nonetheless called in 2019 via the Early Parliamentary General Election Act 2019, which only required a simple majority because it had equivalent authority to the FTPA itself.

[foldr]

I'm not sure the US is currently a particularly great advertisment for its model of constitutional government. In place of acts of Parliament that have a relatively clear interpretation (and that can be undone or modified by elected representatives), there is legislative deadlock and an endless series of judicial séances attempting to determine whether or not Ben Franklin would have supported gay marriage, abortion rights and concealed carry of MANPADS if he'd been born 300 years later.

[tengwar2]

No, in that sense the UK does not have an American-style constitution - no more, no less. It is not accidental that Parliament can reverse any decision taken by an earlier Parliament: in fact it is one of the most important parts of the constitution that no Parliament can take a decision which binds a later one. It is different from the American design, yes, but the way in which the American constitution is used does not seem praiseworthy, not does it suggest that it would be wise to copy it.

[lesuorac]

> When legislatures pass laws that exceed the bounds of the Constitution, the courts strike down those laws as null and void.

Well, that's not actually in the US constitution.

And, the Executive branch is free to ignore what the Judicial branch [1] does since ya know, it's the Executive branch that would execute any decisions.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_Nation_v._Georgia#Aft...

[callamdelaney]

I'd like to take this moment to thank the European Union for our human rights /s

[foldr]

No /s required. You can see a list of landmark judgments here, some of which apply to the UK. (Although you’re confusing the EU with the Council of Europe.)

https://www.coe.int/en/web/human-rights-convention/landmark-...

[dbdr]

Patrick Stewart sketch: what has the ECHR ever done for us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA

[callamdelaney]

So now we need a council of Europe referendum?

As you know human rights existed long before somebody decided to sign away our interpretation of them to a foreign body.

Weird how the right to liberty and security doesn't apply to native populations.

[jonp888]

If you're trying to compare Britain unfavourably to the US with this comment then that doesn't really hold up.

People are sacked all the time in the US for bringing their employer into disrepute, and it doesn't even matter whether they actually did or not, since the employer doesn't have to give a reason anyway.

[callamdelaney]

What? That's a clause with almost every UK contract I've ever signed. The US constitution doesn't touch on employment rights.

Id also point out that the UK is generally an extremely poor country, living standards for the majority are low, income is extremely low after taxes, especially compared to the states.

Britain compares itself unfavourably to the US on almost every metric that matters.

[immibis]

The same as an American citizen, then. That piece of paper locked up in the national archives (or wherever) didn't come running, armed with a gun, to save the life of George Floyd or anyone else.

[callamdelaney]

No but it is a basis in law for eg freedom of speech, that sort of right is none existent here. Id much rather have a formal, immutable constitution.

[foldr]

There is a basis in UK law for freedom of speech (most recently, Article 10 of the Human Rights act). It's true that protections for free speech are not as extensive in the UK as they are in the US, but the US is the outlier in that case. Very few countries have free speech protections as strong as the First Amendment.

[immibis]

The UK laws elaborate on what is and isn't free speech, while the US law basically just says "there shall be free speech (as far as Congress is concerned. Other parties can do whatever they like to stifle speech)"

[callamdelaney]

UK law is extremely loosely defined. Judges are ultimately responsible for its interpretation, which they do relatively literally - so as long as the police and CPS bring a case there's a good chance you've fallen foul of the law, subjectively - which is how they are written. E.g malicious communications act.

[callamdelaney]

Which must be tosh, you can literally go to prison for years here for stating facts. What if some day somebody takes offence to 2+2=4? The guy who says 2+2=4 goes to jail for years whilst rapists and murders get away with 6 months or suspended sentences. But don't mention that, or else!

Even self defence is a dubious right here.