[eldridgea]

~2019 I led a team of highly qualified security R&D folks inside Cisco (we were part of an acquisition), these folks were effectively highly specialized SWEs. But because the title was something like "security researcher" it was compared against the closet Radform ladder which was closer to to compliance officer.

This meant the specialists were on a ladder with often lower pay than a standard SWE, and I couldn't shift the bureaucracy enough to change that. People left for all sorts of reasons but a big part was being able to get 2x-4x the total compensation at other companies.

[HelloMcFly]

If anyone else runs into this issue, typically the direct route for things like this is to get involved a discussion with someone in your Total Rewards / Global Compensation team. These are usually the people that confirm the mapping of internal positions to benchmarks, and there is huge between-organizations variability in the quality behind that process.

Many times normal managers or more generalist HR Partners (especially if more junior) may not appreciate that this is a data error vs. a frustrated hiring manager trying to tell you their subjective feelings are more correct than policy.

That having been said: I still think the whole thing stinks.

[ndesaulniers]

HR is not your friend. Corporate Confidential by Cynthia Shapiro is a recommended read.

My advice; get a better offer elsewhere, then see if HR wants to pay you your worth.

[tfehring]

The comment you replied to seems to be targeted at managers trying to advocate for their teams, not at individual contributors trying to advocate for themselves. I agree that reaching out to the compensation team as an IC is generally not going to be an appropriate or effective way to get a raise. But for managers, working with HR on issues like that is just part of the job.

[HelloMcFly]

Thank you, yes. This is not an uncommon managerial problem that is often resolved (not always; I've had both experiences), though perhaps not in a timely manner.

[Loughla]

I'm currently fighting this. The benchmark for my team is 10-15% lower than just our area. And 30-40% lower than the nation. And it's because we get lumped in with lower skilled titles because of the title scheme on our campus.

I can't get any traction with admin or HR, and we're both hemorrhaging people and can't bring in qualified new candidates.

It's very frustrating.

[staticautomatic]

I just went through this last week and the trick was getting my finance director to tell HR that she approved the higher amount I wanted to offer. HR will play games with your budget until you take the excuse away.

[datavirtue]

My company just googles the position title and slaps that number in the job description. Not going well.

[lelanthran]

> HR is not your friend.

Most people don't get this.

HR exists to protect the company from the employees, not protect the employees from the company.

[Xeoncross]

+1 It's called "Human" resources not "Company" resources for a reason.

[nequo]

Or: it’s called human “resources” not human “beings” for a reason.

[BizarroLand]

"HR" stands for "Human Resources".

Resources are exploited by companies.

QED.

The most profitable thing in all of human history has always been and will always be information disparity. Create systems to share information on your salary with other people in your field.

[metadat]

Thanks for the interesting recommendation.

The book you referenced is from 2005, has the game evolved in the past 20 years? My friends who work in HR seem to think so.

[theshackleford]

The problem is, it can change rapidly on the ground. We actully had a good HR team in a previous role, that really did work to support the employees, would push back against the org etc where approripiate (including on things like salary).

Financials in our parent company dipped, and rather than address their issues they went to war with the acquisitions they had picked up over the last five years or so to try and squeeze blood from a stone.

Step 1 was to immediately replace local HR teams with a US based team who proceeded to weaponise the data that had been held by the local team.

So even if you think HR today is "pretty good", it could change from underneath you very quickly.

The change was actually wild, one of the first things they did was try to get us all to sign new employment contracts that calculated how benefits defined in law in my country apply in the hopes that nobody would notice. It was effectively a paycut they were trying to hide.

It would have reduced my salary by close to 20k had I signed it, some people did. They refused to acknowledge this sneaky change until a few employees took up legal representation and then magically we all had new contracts the very next day with the issue suddenly resolved. Prior to this they just spent weeks gaslighting people and threatening termination for anyone that didn't re-sign the new contracts.

[bobthepanda]

the best way to see how companies respond to things is to see what happens during the bad times.

it's easy to be good when things are going easy. it's hard to be good when times are hard.

[metadat]

Sounds like one or two startups I've worked for prior. Yikes.

[tayo42]

Idk how people can even work in hr. Like how dead does your soul need to be to have such a old job.

[II2II]

Because it is a job that needs to be done and someone is willing to pay for it. For some people it may be the best job they can get.

I understand why no one likes human resources. They are there to protect the interests of the business and it is in the best interest of the employee to interact with them as little as possible. On the other hand, they are a useful resource for managers. HR frees them up from many of the administrative tasks for recruitment. They are a resource for management when they need to know something about compliance with labour regulations. Whether it is a compliance issue or the desire to retain an employee, they may just save your behind. That isn't to say that you should approach them directly. You need an advocate, otherwise they will probably view you as a liability. If you don't have that advocate (e.g. a manager or a union representative), then good luck!

[tayo42]

i mean if hr was just doing those things no one would complain. I get there's some nuance to the responsibilities of an HR department but interactions usually seem to be biased towards protect the company, not make peoples lives easier. So i think it takes a certain kind of person to actually be able to do that effectively.

[loa_in_]

The HR depts are usually pretty sizeable. It's a combined effort, for sure.

[alistairSH]

You do realize “HR” encompasses a wide variety of positions, right? They aren’t all stereotypically evil minions.

Somebody has to be a comp & benefits analyst.

Somebody has to be a recruiter.

Somebody has to manage the PIPs.

Somebody has to have knowledge of the legal obligations of both sides of the employment agreement.

[dboreham]

I have some insight into this space (compensation analysis) through a family member. Either the VP was incompetent, or the mismatched job situation was used as cover for the outcome they intended (people leaving). "The bureaucracy" exists to serve businesses interests, and legal risks to same.

[ndesaulniers]

Sounds like first hand experience observing wages being suppressed as a result of Radford/Aon.