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by mensetmanusman 658 days ago
Because instincts exist, there is no free will.

(Although free will is required to make any conclusion about the presence or absence of free will, so the point is moot).

1 comments

Grandparent's argument is ridiculous but so is yours, how is free will required to make a conclusion on the existence of free will ?
Making any conclusion requires the use of a will, otherwise it’s just a coin flip, and random decision aren’t part of logical frameworks.
Yes they are, look at the derandomization program in computational complexity, or if you're slightly more forgiving with your definition of logic, then look at mixed strategies and Monte-Carlo algorithms.
*only random decisions can’t come to a conclusion. That would mean a random proof of free will is just as valid :)

Definitely random generators can be a subset of logic, not the superset.

I don't know what you're saying. A derandomized Las Vegas algorithm is deterministic for a given seed, so far so good. From there I'm lost.
Imagine you have no will.

Each series of words and arguments is equivalent because no understanding actually exists.

There is no mechanism behind picking one series of words over the other because a random number generator is behind anything.

You can’t trust such a system to produce any logical outcome, therefore free will (embodied understanding and decisions etc.) is required to conclude that free will doesn’t exist :)

Mathematical reasoning requires no will, rules can be derived from axioms algorithmically.
Not true in practice, not enough energy on the universe to algorithmically derive everything. Also, someone with understanding and will would have to set up the program :)
Well then, how do you suppose the human brain does it ? Magic ? The answer of course is: it's heuristics all the way down.

But I don't think we can agree on anything here, I am a materialist and you seem to be a dualist. You may believe in some kind of god(s), (Otherwise how could will-ful humans emerge from will-less matter ?) and I don't intend to debate this here.

My worldview is that our brains exist in a material universe that is governed by physical rules, and until I see proof of the existence of some kind of soul that is somehow able to make decisions detached from our material condition (culture, health, environment, past history), I think my position is the most reasonable one.

When you imagine an apple, do you think the apple you see is real?