[draebek]

I struggle to understand why people are so toxic with chat in video games. I don't go to the supermarket, or even the bar and hear people just casually chatting about "who hates [racial slur]?"

There's John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory, which says that if you give normal people anonymity and an audience then they become (let's call them) assholes. I feel that, in order to buy this, you must accept that there are a surprisingly large number of assholes, much larger than I want to believe.

Are the number of racist idiots just much greater amongst Gamers™? (To be clear, I play a lot of video games myself. I prefer to believe I am not a racist.)

I'd love to say that there are a lot more young people playing video games, and they're just trying to be edgy, but I had a chat with some guy who was talking about getting his appliances repaired by "lazy [racial slur]" people. That's probably not a fourteen year old, right? I've seen that a lot.

I understand that it probably just takes one or two people per game to make the chat unbearable, but if I'm on a team with six or eight people, and I consistently get at least one of these fucking idiots per match, isn't that still an uncomfortably high percentage of the population?

[Verdex]

My hypothesis of civilization is that even the smallest child with a blade may with sufficient luck grievously wound the mightiest warrior.

So there is a natural mechanism that tends people towards some level of civility when they're in meat space with each other.

Incivility towards the other not present is then about fitting in via tribalism. After all, those others could be dangerous so we had better make sure our tribe is all on the right page about mistrusting them.

Incivility towards the other who is present is then about an attempt at social dominance. "Don't mess with me because there are others like me who will avenge me." Perhaps.

Online there is only reputational harm and emotional harm. And when anonymous there is only emotional harm.

When the fear of an unexpected stabbing is truly removed we see the true heart of our fellows. Alas, not the most aesthetically pleasing view.

[akudha]

One doesn't behave bad to someone stronger than them (or wealthier, or in a powerful position etc) because they know there will be consequences. One doesn't pick a fight in a bar or supermarket because they know there will be consequences.

What consequence is there for saying crappy things online, in a video game, especially playing with kids? At best one would get banned? Then go to some other site/game and repeat the same bad behavior.

The truly nicest people are those who are nice even when there is no one around to watch them.

[mrmetanoia]

This really hurts to think - that so many people are only doing the decent thing because of consequence :(

[wkat4242]

> There's John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory, which says that if you give normal people anonymity and an audience then they become (let's call them) assholes.

I don't agree. HN is one of the best examples. We're as anonymous as we can be here and still this is one of the most friendly online environments I know. Clearly community culture plays a big role too. And it keeps offering refreshing content, I learn new stuff here daily, unlike in the commercial bubbles.

Same on Libera chat. Didn't turn into a cesspool. In fact the former freenode suddenly did but the community immediately turned their back on it en masse. It was beautiful to see.

Also, the early internet.

[ThrowawayR2]

I would guess that you don't have showdead turned on and/or haven't been to any of the rather, uh, energetic culture wars threads that the moderation team used to allow over the past few years. It's not that there aren't commenters inclined to behave badly on HN, it's that either they've learned to restrain themselves as the cost of continuing to participate in HN or have been rendered invisible by user flagging or moderators.

[wkat4242]

Yeah but there's always assholes. Anonymity or not.

What defines a community is how it deals with them and as such as steers the sentiment of the entire community. The "they learned to restrain themselves" is exactly what should happen.

And I doubt getting banned is much of a deterrent. After all one can sign up without even as much as an email address. I know many people throw away accounts daily. Imagine doing that on Facebook or X. It would really go off the rails.

Yet the community here is still very pleasant.

[astura]

>[HN] is one of the most friendly online environments I know.

Um....wow! Are you and I on the same site? There's a lot of ways I'd describe HN, "friendly" isn't one of them.

Genuine meanness and cruelty is WAY more common here than friendliness and there's an overall tone of reactionism, cynicalism, and negativity for the sake of it. People here are very cocky and confident talking about things they don't know anything about.

[K0balt]

The asshole fraction is surprisingly high. If all kinds are accounted for, anecdotally I would estimate that the number is between 1/4 and 1/3. If you’re on here, there is a good chance that you are an outlier in many respects, and normally that means that we tend to breathe rarified, filtered air…we don’t see it except online.

It helps to remember that for every college professor level person there is someone out there for whom tying his shoes is a significant cognitive challenge. For every really smart person out there, there is someone who is cognitively incapable of meaningfully participating in society.

The bell curve is a bitch.

[burnished]

Yes, it seems clear that a component of Gamer Culture is casual bigotry. It has been changing but that mostly means spaces have become more inclusive and new people are more inclusive. The pre-existing people didn't stop existing they just sort of got shoved out of places that started having standards around behavior.

An aspect of the Greater Internet Fuckwad theory is also the level of exposure behavior gets in an online context - so very many more people are present in a way that invites sharing and comment that just doesn't exist in a grocery store. Think about how unusual it would be for me to reply in depth to an offhand comment like this (that was not directed to me) at a bar. Or how many people you might socialize with in a tf2 or l4d lobby over the course of an hour compared to in a grocery.

There is also a component of self selection when it comes to the spaces you are comparing against; you probably wouldn't want to go to bars and groceries where that behavior was present well before you actually got to live examples.

In my experience individual communities can also have very different feels. For example I used to play League of Legends and eventually switched to Dota2 because it felt very consistent that at least one person would behave in an awful fashion in the league lobbies. Whereas when playing Dota that sort of behavior was the exception.

[celim307]

I'd argue its from attention seeking from lonely people online. Being a rage troll is the quickest way to get some kind of interaction, and being online means theres less consequences for it

[conductr]

People revert to their inner twelve year old punk kid self when they are there. Bullying and trying to one up others in terms of most outrageous thing you can say is common and applauded.

[mulmen]

> I feel that, in order to buy this, you must accept that there are a surprisingly large number of assholes, much larger than I want to believe

Why? The theory is that they become assholes, not that they started that way. The microphone is corrupting.

[Muromec]

Thankfully multiplayers games without chat exits. It’s enough to get tea-bagged by a team winning a 1v3 without actually hearing them talk.

[Hearth90pBots]

I always found those games extremely depressing, and... Widely known to be botted to hell and back. Ever since the Hearthstone cheating software became capable of "emulating" human behavior, it became clear that 90% of the userbase was non-human. Why play then? An unbalanced game, by virtue of their grind/paid advantage, and you're not even outsmarting anyone. Single player deckbuilders like Slay the Spire and its spawn are objectively better at that point.

[techjamie]

My boss at my first job was a nice guy, helped me out a lot when I was still a fledgling adult. Added him on Facebook after a few months and it was covered in Confederate flags, Nazi windmills, and talk about certain types of people.

I knew he did some bad stuff and spent a long time behind bars, but I didn't see that coming.

Also, if you go to any YouTube video that involves a non-white person committing a crime, the comments are stuffed with thinly veiled, or outright, racist remarks. People are just garbage.

[cmrdporcupine]

Something has changed in the last 10 years. I'm sure this was always there, but. I used to see people get ripped and shredded in comments sections for racist etc. commentary. Now it seems like the norm.

I'd blame Trump & crew, but I suspect his rise is as much a symptom as a cause.

The other day I got fed a mattress ad in my Facebook feed, and it featured a mixed race couple relaxing together on a bed. The comments were just full of some of the most outright vile content I'd ever seen, and I'm not young. Full-on neo-Nazi stuff. I made the mistake of calling someone on their crap, and got threatened, person went through my profile snapping public pics, etc. etc. it was just insane.

I just... despair :(

[mrmetanoia]

I struggle also. I love that PA comic! I often tell my wife when we get someone who starts throwing in Rocket League, "you wouldn't do this if you walked down to the park for a pickup game of basketball - nobody would ever play with you again. you would look like a moron." and maybe that's it. there's no meaningful consequence? It's sad though to think so many people are only being compelled to do the decent thing to avoid consequences and eschew decent behavior as soon as they enter a consequence free zone? Just breaks my heart really, because I thought we did these things for fun lol

[isk517]

I think that unfortunately there are just a larger number of assholes than we would like to believe, and they particularly manifest when playing video games. Playing video games is something people due for a release, and what they are releasing isn't always pleasant. For every person that openly acts like a asshole out in public there are at least 2 secret assholes who understand the society expects them to be on their best behavior, but once they are anonymous then the vitriol can flow freely.

With that said I think the percentage of assholes by percentage of population is always going to be higher in video games with voice chat simply because it becomes a outlet for a certain type of person.

[slowmovintarget]

No, that's not what science tells us is going on. There are no in-person cues that tell someone their behavior is unacceptable or must be controlled:

- Other people watching (no social cost)

- No facial expressions or body language from others triggering mirror neurons that serve as empathy precursors.

- No risk (violence, loss of property, loss of status... etc.)

There are simply too many people that don't consciously monitor their own behavior for right and wrong. Absent those other layers and pressures, we all tend to make unconsciously selfish decisions. That many young people don't think about the morality involved in those behaviors is a failure of upbringing, not nature (IMHO).

[dasil003]

I suspect it's because angry and disenfranchised people are over-represented in terms of hours spent playing online games. There's also a negative feedback loop where more casual and/or sensitive gamers opt out since they don't want to deal with the bullshit.

[unshavedyak]

> There's also a negative feedback loop where more casual and/or sensitive gamers opt out since they don't want to deal with the bullshit.

I think there's also a loop where extremes are pushed. Ie it's common to celebrate victories in games. This then tilts players. Players lean into that tilt, and teabag. Teabag eventually is mundane, so you spread verbal toxicity. Toxicity then isn't enough, and etcetc.

It seems a loop without external pressures like in-person-reputation to inhibit how far it goes. A cycle of abuse that's all anonymous, fueled by the general competitive arousal of PvP/etc games.

Note that i'm mostly speaking to PvP games where that competitive environment also contributes to it. However i imagine "cycle of abuse" has it's place in most of these anonymous environments.

[oever]

In games where you're shooting others, how can you justify that? Either you are bad or they are bad. When you're in a team, it's normal that the team talks about justification.

[jachee]

I think you’ve run across one of the major, unfortunate reasons US elections are so close, from the …less-progressive… side of things.

[johnnyanmac]

Well that's easy to explain. Most voters skew older for historical reasons and older people tend to become more conservative as they age (again, for historical reasons).

This "gamer rage" is a more recent enabling by technological anonymity, as well as instantaneous, cheap global communication. Actions without consequences, but without needing millions to cover up the petty actions.

[gopher_space]

From my experience any pvp game that doesn’t have in-game admins attracts these people.

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

Faux-anonymity/lack of consequences.

The same reason that many on the internet are toxic.

[ThrowawayR2]

> "Are the number of racist idiots just much greater amongst Gamers™?"

You have clearly never read the comments on newspaper websites back when they still had them. Sturgeon's Law applies to human beings in general.

[yoGawd]

Would it be toxic if your culture didn’t train you to see it as such?

Would members of an uncontacted tribe clutch their pearls all the same?

So tired of one cultures anxiety being made the norm everywhere to serve the hallucination 300 million Americans the other 8 billion don’t need should be special.

Americans have expropriated other nations labor and resources and rely on their slave labor without batting an eye about it. Really sick of holding them up as some shining beacon of freedom and dignity.

You rely on worse to survive but omgurd wurds hurt so much as someone else’s back and knees after digging up others food, and their lungs after testing vapes, and their hands after sewing together your Nikes.

The elders are right about my peers; oblivious and entitled. Just parrots of cognitive dissonant TV memes like “Do your own thing. Drink Sprite like the rest of the group we’re showing. Engaging in norms of your society like everyone else is unique!”

Americans are an insane and dangerous people; temporary meat suits convinced of their permanence and righteousness while carrying on about being above biases and exploitative behavior.