[spc476]

I'm not mempko, but I can answer that question---yes. For over a decade on the same code base with a team that ranged from 3 to 7 over the years. We did have what would be considered end-to-end tests, or maybe integration tests that tested the entire system from ingress (requests coming in) to egress (results going out) that ensured the existing "business logic" didn't break.

There were no unit tests, as a) the code wasn't written in a style to be "unit" tested, and b) what the @#$@Q#$ is a unit anyway? Individual functions in the code base (a mixture of C89, C99, C++98 and C++03) more or less enforced "design by contract" by using calls to assert() to assert various conditions in the code base. That caught bugs as it prevented the wrong use of the code when modifying it.

Things only got worse when new management (we were bought out) came in, and started enforcing tests to the point where I swear upper management believed that tests were more important than the product itself. Oh, the bug count shot up, deployments got worse, and we went from "favorite vendor" to "WTF is up with that vendor?" within a year.

[dataflow]

Thanks for the reply. See my reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41287310

It sounds like you, too, were doing application development rather than library development. By which I mean that -- even if you were developing a "library" -- you more or less knew where & how that library was going be used in the overall system/application.

That's all fine and dandy for your case, but not all software development has the luxury of being so limited in scope. Testing the application fundamentally misses a lot more edge cases than a unit test would ever miss. And setup/teardown takes so much longer when every single change in some part of the codebase requires you to re-test the entire application.

When your project gets bigger or the scope becomes open-ended (think: you're writing a library for arbitrary users, like Boost.Regex), you literally have no application or higher-level code to test the "integration" against -- unit tests are your only option. How else are you going to test something like regex_match?

> what the @#$@Q#$ is a unit anyway?

https://res.cloudinary.com/practicaldev/image/fetch/s--S_Bl5...

P.S. I have to also wonder, how much bigger was the entire engineering team compared to the 3-7 people you mention? And if it was significantly bigger, how often were they allowed to make changes to your team's code? It seems to me you probably tight control over your code and it didn't see much flux from other engineers. Which, again, is quite a luxury and not scalable.

[spc476]

I learned early on to automate the test system. It went from a 30-minute setup to run a 5-hour test (which I wrote) to one command that took maybe a minute to run all tests (which I also wrote, and by the end, you could specify just what tests you wanted to run). And yes, that one command generated all the test data and ran all the processes required to test.

Towards the end, management was asking to test for negatives ("Write tests to make sure that component T doesn't get a request when it isn't supposed to," when component T was a networked component that queried a DB not under our control). Oh, and our main business logic made concurrent requests to two different DBs and again, I had to write code to test all possible combinations of replies, timeouts and dropped traffic to ensure we did The Right Thing. Not an easy thing to unit test, as the picture you linked to elegantly showed (and, you side stepped my question I see).

The entire engineering team for the project was maybe 20, 25 people, but each team (five total) had full control over their particular realm, but all were required for the project as a whole. Our team did C and C++ on Solaris; three teams used Java (one for Android, and two on the server side) and the final team did the whole Javascript/HTML/CSS thang.

You're right that we didn't see much flux from the other teams, nor from our customer (singular---one of the Oligarchic Cell Phone Companies), but that's because the Oligarchic Cell Phone Company doesn't move fast, nor did any of the other teams want do deal with phone call flows (our code was connected to the Phone Network). We perhaps saw the least churn over the decade simply due to being part of the Phone Network---certainly the other teams had to deal with more churn than us (especially the Android and JS/HTML teams).

Also, each team (until new management took over) handled deveopment differently; some teams used Agile, some scrum, some none. Each team had control. Until we didn't. And then things fell apart.

If I was developing a library, the only tests I might have would be to test the public API and nothing more. No testing of private (or internal) code as that would possibly churn too much to be useful. Also, as bugs are discovered, I would probably keep the code that proves the error to prevent further regressions if the API doesn't change.

One thing I did learn at that job is never underestimate what crap will be sent your way. I thought that the Oligarchic Cell Phone Company would send good data; yes for SS7 (the old telephony protocol stack), but not at all for SIP (the new, shiny protocol for the Intarweb age).