[tialaramex]

> you're not going to let people work from home and only come in one day a week

Huh, I guess I dreamed the first start-up I worked for (a couple of decades ago) where indeed I only came in one day a week.

Yes of course you "work like hell". We had a nasty leak bug and I set things up so that day or night if the leak was detected my stereo would go maximum volume and play "Straight Outta Compton". How does commuting count as "working like hell" ?

If I'm sat in a car (and once a week I often was) then I'm not working am I? I am useless for several hours each day we do that. Maybe sometimes the CTO (who is in the car, he's driving, he worked from home too) is discussing relevant technology, you know design of our secret sauce schema-less database engine, IP stuff - but then it's also possible we're discussing the album that's playing, or a video game we both enjoyed, or a novel we're both reading.

[panarky]

People who sit in their cars an hour every morning, stressed by traffic and pollution before they even set foot in the office, who then attend back-to-back meaningless meetings and email and slack, and then get back in the goddamn car again for another hour if they're lucky, think everyone who doesn't perform this unhealthy and destructive ritual is a slacker.

[jh00ker]

This reminds me of the Dave Barry quote: Meetings are an addictive, highly self-indulgent activity that corporations and other large organizations habitually engage in only because they cannot actually masturbate.

[milofeynman]

That reminds me of https://www.npr.org/2023/02/15/1156804295/shopify-delete-mee...

[ryandrake]

One thing I noticed after switching to WFH is that I am no longer dealing with that 15-30 minute "mental haze" that happens right after I finish my 2 hour car commute: That decompression period where my brain is fatigued from being on high alert, white knuckling it down I-580, then I-680, then I-880, watching for hazards, accidents, or just slogging through bumper-to-bumper traffic. I'd walk into the office but my brain was just too fatigued to work without a little time spent just walking around like a normal person.

[spacemadness]

2 hours?! That is insane. I don’t understand why people put up with that.

[inferiorhuman]

  If I'm sat in a car

There are other ways to commute. Commuting via train gave me a chance to go for a walk through parts of the city I'd otherwise not spend a lot of time in. Being stuck in suburban hell currently, working 100% from home is a nightmare scenario for me. Asshole neighbors. Constant noise (far worse than e.g. Oakland). Shit infrastructure (electric, telecom, whatever).

And, in my experience, collaboration almost always suffers. One coworker used to work 100% from his man cave but also refused to invest in getting decent WiFi coverage down there.

  then it's also possible we're discussing the album that's playing, or a
  video game we both enjoyed, or a novel we're both reading.

So? Even though HN has a hard on for eliminating human interaction, socialization is important.

That said, Schmidt is wrong to pin Google's failures on remote work. Pichai is a fucking moron and Google's toxic culture is destroying both their ability to put out competitive products and to keep anything around long enough to get meaningful market share.

[goshx]

> There are other ways to commute.

There are better places to live.

See what I did there? Not everyone has better options to commute.

[esalman]

Better places might be more expensive.

[dsq]

True, but doesn't WFH solve that? There must be somewhere that's both good and cheap once you go far enough.

[inferiorhuman]

  There are better places to live.

So? Going into the office makes a clear delineation between my personal and professional life. Working from home means I never get around to doing the things I need to do at home. Working from an office means I leave all (well, most) of that shit at the office. IOW, don't shit where you eat.

[lnxg33k1]

I commuted every day in London, for 6 months, going to work in Croydon, from Blackfriars. It was the worst six months of my life, you make it sound like you're the only one commuting via train, every morning I would get covered in armpits, train delay, train canceled, people standing on top of each other.

[inferiorhuman]

  Croydon

Well there's your problem.

[lnxg33k1]

Imagine going to Croydon while covered in Napalm

[musicale]

Commutes can be great when they aren't crowded. But overcrowded trains and subways, highway traffic jams, and risk-your-life city cycling are commuting nightmares.

[NBJack]

Or cities that have seen a uptick in crime but refuse to either fund security measures or empower the existing workers to do anything about it on mass transit.

Seattle used to have a great transit setup between the busses and the light rail. But post Covid, the security and enforcement was scaled back dramatically, making it a real crap shoot on how safe a ride could be. This is slowly being recognized and changing [1], but I don't need the stress of being stabbed or shot each morning on the way to work.

[1] https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/sound-transit-beefing-up-se...

[andreiursan]

On other ways to commute: You assume that people who commute by car do so because they want to, instead of going by train. I don't think that is the case.

On people who refused to get a good WFH setup (e.g., WiFi): I bet those are terrible people to work with in the office, too.

& I agree with your last point.

[electronbeam]

Often there are not other ways to commute

[Rinzler89]

>On people who refused to get a good WFH setup (e.g., WiFi): I bet those are terrible people to work with in the office, too.

Huh? That's some crazy generalization Batman. Many people who rent have little control over their home office setups,. especially in a bad housing market.

[genocidicbunny]

> There are other ways to commute

Really? Pray tell what other methods I would have to commute? The closest bus, train or subway service is about the same distance as driving to work with a car. Parking at work is also free, but I have to pay for parking at the bus stop, or the train stop, or the subway stop. Oh and there's no way to walk there because I would have to walk along the shoulder of a 4-lane highway where the speed limit is 65mph.

So, how do I commute without a car?

[wordofx]

There’s no point in arguing with people on HN. The same people downvoting you are the same people who refuse to use AI because it’s “not perfect”. They would rather work from home and be made redundant and unemployable than be productive and valuable.

[genocidicbunny]

No, the people arguing with the parent are the ones who have actual life experience of living in places where there's no reasonable access to public transit (read: most of the USA) and who aren't naive to think that everywhere is a perfect little urban world where you have usable choices in your method of transport.

I live inside a major metro area. My closest public transit is a 10 minute drive by car, or a several hour walk by foot, and that's a 3x a day bus. If I wanted to actually access useful public transit, I would need to hike 3+ miles over about 1500' of elevation change, on roads with no sidewalks. And I'm in one of the most public transit friendly metro areas in the US.

[wordofx]

No. You make a choice to live far or unconvinced from your place of work. And that is totally fine. But it doesn’t change the fact you are less productive working from home than in the office. Can argue all you want but it doesn’t change the facts.

[surgical_fire]

You presented no facts. You presented some poorly worded opinions on questionable rationale and inferior vocabulary.

In fact, there was this whole WFH experience some 4 years ago, and companies saw no loss in productivity. That is fact.

[wordofx]

Haha a few companies making bold claims it worked despite lost productivity and realising later that being in the office was more productive doesn’t align with your “fact”.

[genocidicbunny]

You haven't produced an iota of evidence to support your claims as being facts.

It's almost like such decisions aren't made based on a single binary argument, but on a lot of different factors. Sure, I could live closer to work. I'd be paying more for a smaller house, worse schools, more local traffic, more noise, neighbors that are a little closer than comfortable. But yes, then I'd be able to get on the bus and ride it to work instead of using my car. I doubt I'd be more productive though because my sleep quality will suffer, I'll have more stress dealing with things like getting the kids to school, or worrying if my car is going to get broken into or hit-and-run while it's parked on the street. Instead of being able to take a short 10 minute break to read to the kids, or to help cook lunch or dinner, I'll just wander down to the cafeteria and make myself some cheap tea and grab a granola bar. Sure, I don't get to see the kids as much, and my partner can't work full-time hours anymore because I'm not there to help, but at least the bus stop's right there eh?

And perhaps I don't really care to be as productive as possible for your definition of productive. I don't live to work, I work so I can live how I want. Somehow, I've managed to still have a job; In my time I have seen plenty of 'productivity maximalists' come and go.

[wordofx]

I love how you write a novel to justify not being able to manage your work/life balance.