[DiscourseFan]

At this point, we've all gotten quite used to the "style" of LLM outputs, and personally I doubt this is the case, however, it is possible that there is some, shall we say, corruption of the data here, since it was not possible to measure the ability of LLMs to predict the next word before there were LLMs.

I propose you do the same things, but only include HN content from before the existence of LLMs. That should ensure there is no bias towards any of the models.

[JoelEinbinder]

If I used old comments then it's likely that the models will have trained on them. I haven't tested if that makes a difference though.

[raggi]

an unbiased llm shouldn't be producing "style", it should be generating outputs that closely match the training set, as such their introduction should constitute only some biasing toward the average, which also happens in language usage in humans over time. the outcome is likely indistinguishable for large general data sets and large models. i am interested to see how chatbot outputs produce human output bias in generations growing up with them though, that seems likely and will probably be substantial

[DiscourseFan]

But that's clearly not the case. There was a post the other day about how GPT used certain words at a rate remarkably higher than average. Also the paragraph breaks, the politesse. No, I don't have much to back it up, but generally I can tell very quickly if a chunk of text is from ChatGPT, for instance, or if an image is generated by DALL-E.

[raggi]

in the above, when i say llm, i mean the base models, when i say chatbot, i mean things like chatgpt, they're not the same. chatgpt is not just a frontend for the base model, studies on chatgpt covering output biasing that it has from the fine tuning, prompts and contexts and other things they do are largely not applicable to the raw model generation in this quiz, and they are also largely not applicable to llms as a whole

[DiscourseFan]

An LLM takes a slice of data from the world, by nature it has to organize it in some such way, depending on how its trained, and the method of organizing it is hard-coded into the model. Therefore, all models will develop some sort of style, no matter what, since somebody, or a team of people, had to figure out a way to portion out a selection of data, and this problem is intractable.

[raggi]

generative models are trained to generate outputs in response to an input, that closely resemble the training data. that’s literally all they do. if a base model was introducing “style” training (as we currently do it) wouldn’t even function. what you’re implying is mathematically intractable for generative models, and that’s fundamental to what they are and how they are made. the style stuff you’re referring to is a side effect of fine tuning and contexts of chatbots, it’s not a property of llms or generative models

[DiscourseFan]

So you agree with me? Style is fundamentally part of the set of all data used in production, and that can be “tuned” as you say, but never removed. Its the ghost in the machine, the spark of contingency. Of course, all machines bear the mark of their creators, but LLMs doubly so, as creators themselves. Like shitty, partially incoherent children.