[waihtis]

NixOS may be legitimate, but the amount of BS funded under these EU programs is atrocious. The application processes are wildly untransparent, run by local bureaucrats under multiple layers of abstraction. I won't suggest anything here except that there's a lot of favourable conditions here to funnel money into dead-on-arrival projects.

EU should just focus on reducing legislation, bureaucracy, regulation and taxation instead of trying to construct layers upon layers of "instruments" for achieving something.

[DoingIsLearning]

> The application processes are wildly untransparent, run by local bureaucrats under multiple layers of abstraction.

I was surprised to find a few years back that the big consultancy companies actually have teams dedicate to advising companies on these applications and supporting documents. Helping them navigate the complexity.

If you need to pay consultancy companies to navigate the process then you just killed access to smaller companies and universities in less well off economies.

[scrollaway]

Disclaimer: I run a Brussels-based startup accelerator which, as part of its program, assists startups in these applications (just like those consultancy companies you mention).

And I completely, entirely agree with you. The process is very, very annoying, long, bureaucratic, uncertain and frustrating.

It's quite transparent actually unlike GP says, but the main problem is that the scale of the complexity involved in those applications means you are going to be paying consultants to help you as part of the process. This means there's a bunch of money flowing towards pure paperwork, and often those consultants also take a success fee which reduces the total amount paid out to the project.

In other words, if you have a 1MM EUR grant, on average 100-150k will be spent ... on the application process across the consortium. And this is just for the winners; given that there's a lot of entities applying to these, I wouldn't be surprised if the "application spend" reaches ~30% of the total. And while not all of it comes out of the grant budget, it's spend triggered by the grant.

Cascade funding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascade_Funding) is .. kind of better? Because it allows smaller projects to exist and apply on their own without as much hassle. The smaller calls are a LOT more competitive however so you don't escape this added work created by the grant application: Many many person-months end up being wasted on the process. But the thing with cascade funding is that every layer of funding that gets cascaded takes a % in operations, and does create additional "work" in the system: It's just spread over more entities and projects. So while it succeeds at "moving more money", a lot of the value-creation is pure busywork.

TBF I don't know a single well-meaning EU civil servant that doesn't think the system needs to be reformed. But into what? How else do you distribute these huge budgets, in open, transparent and democratic way to so many people without creating these huge and complex systems, all while maintaining good checks against fraud? It's easy to say "we can do better" especially here on HN but solving this is magnitudes harder than the types of scale problems Google & Meta face, and it's cross-disciplinary not just engineering. The EU has funded really fantastic and inspiring things, we shouldn't dismiss the whole thing outright.

[pas]

Can you help somehow describe, show, demonstrate what the fuck costs 100K EUR for ... paperwork?

How does this work? Which EU agencies/institutions are involved, what grants are we talking about?

Companies hire groups of developers based on resumes and at best a few hours of vibes. It's good that public funds are spent in a more "evidence based" manner, but it's ridiculous how inefficient this is.

It should be a lottery if it's that hard to judge. It's R&D for fuck's sake. Risk is inherent in the process.

If we want something with a well understood outcomey then use the usual procurement. WTF.

[waihtis]

Its pure theft for the purpose on enriching bureaucrats and other middlemen. Spin it how you want but the source of the funds is tax money collected from EU nations.

[scrollaway]

Most of the consultants operate on a "cost plus success fee", where the success fee is a flat % of the amount that is won. This ensures the consultant is incentivized to actually win the grant. Some will reduce their cost depending on the success fee percentage (which I've seen go as high as 15%).

> Which EU agencies/institutions are involved, what grants are we talking about?

If you google "horizon grant consulting", you will find a lot of examples.

> It should be a lottery if it's that hard to judge.

A lottery encourages a higher amount of low quality submissions.

> It's R&D for fuck's sake.

Well, no, not always. This system applies to the distribution of a LOT of european funds, not just R&D. It's the main way public money moves. If the EU wants to do "something", they'll create a project and do a call for interest, then a call for participation & mentors/evaluators. Mentors/evaluators get remunerated (it's always budgeted for), and will evaluate the proposals. The larger grants require consortiums of multiple members/entities from a minimum amount of different member states, represented by a consortium lead (usually a university will take this role).

Pure R&D goes through the EIC programs (European Investment Council - https://eic.ec.europa.eu/index_en). They are also abhorrently difficult, but they have an excellent reputation and I'd argue they're a lot less broken than Horizon funding. The EIC accelerator (https://eic.ec.europa.eu/eic-funding-opportunities/eic-accel...) is the most competitive accelerator out there; it offers 2.5M of non-dilutive funding so of course it's really interesting, and they tend to fund excellent projects with it.

Horizon programs are more exploratory: The EU has an overarching goal (eg. "we want to move off fossil fuels") and will create thematics for it (eg. "bioplastics", "solar power", "hydrogen"). Those thematics get a variety of calls for more specific proposals on the project.

Here's an example of one of those themes: https://www.cbe.europa.eu/

And here are their current CFPs: https://www.cbe.europa.eu/open-calls-proposals

Take one example "Valorisation of polluted/contaminated wood from industrial and post-consumer waste streams - €7 million" which is available here with the ID HORIZON-JU-CBE-2024-RIA-01: https://ec.europa.eu/info/funding-tenders/opportunities/port...

And you see that they expect projects with specific outcomes (first paragraph, eg they're expecting all projects to result in "New systems combing sorting, cleaning and valorisation of post-consumer and post-industrial wood waste into eco-designed sustainable bio-based products").

[pas]

first of all many thanks for the details!

---

I have spent some time looking at this and trying to get a feel for what's going on.

so it's a CFP, as part of this amazing circular bio-economy joint venture make-it-rain for the whole tech-readiness family! [0]

the specific one that you linked is ... research and innovation, but ... it looks extremely broad.

so, okay, it's not "basic research" (much broader than, let's say, "how to get the glue out of furniture leftovers"), but then what's the money for? (shouldn't this consortium already have a ton of projects ready for evaluation?)

and of course the verbiage is thick as fuck. it's not clear for me - again as an example - that if proposals MUST look at regulation induced bottlenecks or it's an "at least one of them" situation. (also, does it mean that think-tank-style NGOs can propose to do a survey of the regulatory framework and in theory get money for that alone? -- yes, I know, I should check the Annexes, and the call-specific docs/forms [but that's only available after registration?])

...

of course there are sections that absolutely seem to be prime candidate for consultant busywork ("avoid overlaps with past, ongoing and upcoming EU funded projects, including those funded under H2020, HEU and the BBI JU and CBE JU, ... P4P ... NEB ...."... WTF!)

...

all in all, it seems that when the EU wants to do something it ought to do an OKR hierarchy. (and yes, that's exactly what's happening with this 2 billion joint this and that. the objective is circular bio everafter, and the "key results" are reuse/recycle (valorization), etc.)

great. good job EU. still, if it costs 100K to file paperwork for this, I want my money back! :D (well, no I don't want it back, I want the grant system to be reformed so it costs 10x or 100x less to file. and let's spend the rest on writing better CFPs and so on.)

[0] https://www.cbe.europa.eu/sites/default/files/inline-images/...

[waihtis]

Worth remembering EU funding is collected from the nations that participate. In other words, our tax money is paid into the money pool, application consultants eat 10-30% of it and then it gets paid back to those who can afford to pay consultants six-figure sums at minimum. EU bureacrats can pat each other in the back for "creating inspiring and fantastic things", per your words.

Altogether a fantastic system. /s

[scrollaway]

Sounds to me like you just have an axe to grind and don’t really know what you’re talking about; just a strong desire to complain.

It’s not how solutions get built. But I say this from a bed of privilege — it’s true that I have a much better shot at fixing this system than most people in Europe, due to living in brussels.

I’m working on it. We can only do so much.

[waihtis]

Feel free to refute anything I said instead of going into ad hominems.

[scrollaway]

It's not ad hominem; it's a fact: You sound like you just have an axe to grind and you're not adding much to the discussion beyond large scale vague complaints nobody can do anything about.

I'm not sure how the onus is on me to refute anything beyond that. I've added plenty to the discussion upthread.

[waihtis]

Exactly so, EU has been incredibly hostile towards small business for a while now

[whazor]

But funding opensource projects is by definition transparent. Sure, there might be some politics involved in the selection. However, I see many cool projects when I scroll through the list of NLNet: https://nlnet.nl/project/current.html

Furthermore, the amount of funding for these projects is peanuts for governments.

[waihtis]

I'm not fully qualified to talk of the OS side, however the commercial side has some ridiculous ideas.

For instance, I once looked at a R&D program for commercial software for which one of the cornerstone criteria was that you HAD to build your software on top of some discount "EU-developed" tools like some bespoke databases and such.

I think anyone who has spent any time building actual stuff to sell on the markets will see how detrimental this system is.

[rafaelmn]

EU is corrupt on all levels (EU, member states, local government) and is deteriorating rapidly with normalization of corruption. They are grabbing as much power as they can, not letting up existing legislation.

Used to be politicians had shame and would get punished for scandals - these days they just double down and shrug it off. I think Trump pioneered the approach but the EU is following suit, as much as us Europeans like to look down on US politics. Shit is just as bad here, we're just smug and pretend we're better on top of it.

Worst part is even if say 10% of the government is egregiously corrupt now - this will be the focus of public discourse and with the bad actors getting rewarded instead of punished it normalizes and encourages their behavior.

[waihtis]

wait until we get the politicians dream, the chat control bill, not only will Brussels shrug off everything but you'll enjoy a suitable penalty for criticizing them