[Ygg2]

> We've already got literal lab-rats, if that's what someone is planning to do. Human trials are pretty pointless if you don't do them realistically.

Yeah, and there is a gulf between works in mice and works in humans, as anyone reading science journals will tell you. Now, a human model. That's much closer to the real deal.

> It's a sub-set of what's necessary for full automation.

Not really. You are going for a holistic approach when a piecemeal bootstrap is much more likely.

It's a very theoretical solution to a problem that can be solved in a much messier but available way. E.g. Warp drive vs Nuclear power generation ships.

> Giant fusion reactor in the sky that will, if left to its own devices, probably give us gradually increasing power for about five times longer than our atmosphere will last.

You mean the sun? Sure, but that's an extremely unstable source of power that will have us relocate Earth(lings) first, if we want to continue to "use it".

> Entropy doesn't need to be defied, magic is un-called-for. We are an existence proof of this.

Magic is an apt comparison because it's an arcane, theoretical construct that has little to do with reality. Looking at the Wikipedia entry, it's an overkill for trivial purposes, by the time you construct a few, let alone, give everyone a copy, you'd probably exhaust Earth and nearby resources.

[ben_w]

> Now, a human model. That's much closer to the real deal.

Only if you don't shoot yourself in the foot in the process.

> Not really. You are going for a holistic approach when a piecemeal bootstrap is much more likely.

Yes really, and tautologically regardless of if it's piecemeal or sudden.

> Sure, but that's an extremely unstable source of power that will have us relocate Earth(lings) first, if we want to continue to "use it".

The sun is more stable than Earth's orbit and we're using it already. And self-replicating mechanisms ("life") have been running on it for billions of years before we came along.

> Magic is an apt comparison because it's an arcane, theoretical construct that has little to do with reality. Looking at the Wikipedia entry, it's an overkill for trivial purposes, by the time you construct a few, let alone, give everyone a copy, you'd probably exhaust Earth and nearby resources.

I'm looking at one right now: myself. Specifically, my fingers as I type this, because all life meets the criteria of a VN machine.

[Ygg2]

> Yes really, and tautologically regardless of if it's piecemeal or sudden.

You don't have to do it all from scratch. First variation can be built by humans, then the rest can be maintained by machines long term. It's like bootstrapping a compiler versus having compiler write/build itself and hardware.

> I'm looking at one right now: myself. Specifically, my fingers as I type this, because all life meets the criteria of a VN machine.

You aren't a Von Neumann replicator. Or at least not a useful one. No human can construct hammer, chairs and PCs given sequence of DNA. Unless you have to learn it yourself, which defeats the purpose, or you have to raise a new one from scratch for 18 years.

Previous statement indicated that they are necessary for full automation, implying they are useful when it comes to generating artifacts useful for humans.

> The sun is more stable than Earth's orbit and we're using it already. And self-replicating mechanisms ("life") have been running on it for billions of years before we came along.

Sun is stable? Could have fooled me. How are the solar flares?