[AdamJacobMuller]

I agree that we are deeply dysfunctional but it's not about "outcomes vs process"

It's a very short-sighted thinking of how the process change they want to achieve their outcome today could result in someone else using that same process change for a very bad outcome in the future.

[Alupis]

> It's a very short-sighted thinking of how the process change they want to achieve their outcome today could result in someone else using that same process change for a very bad outcome in the future.

This point needs to be amplified to a near unbearable volume. Turn it up to 11, as it might be said.

Discussions like packing SCOTUS to achieve "desirable" outcomes today completely ignore what the next person in office can/will do with such a precedent tomorrow. We can see this already with Executive Orders and how commonplace they have become - only for the next person in office to undo most or everything.

People, in general, need to be more focused on what is best for the nation long-term, not what is best for their political party today. Unfortunately for many, it seems, the difference has become blurry or unrecognizable. So many people have become victims of believing whatever propaganda their party of choice has put out there, and become hostile to any viewpoints that do not fall inside those lines. "We'll lose our democracy if X happens or if Y is elected". How many "most important elections of our lifetime" are we going to have?

[matthewdgreen]

The functioning of this country was based on the idea that separate branches would use their powers to balance each other. While increasing the size of the court may seem “bad” to you, it’s one of the explicit mechanisms provided by the Constitution for the Legislative and Executive branches to balance out overreach by the Judicial branch. This is the system working as intended. And in the one historical instance where we got very close to actual “court packing”, the result was not partisan warfare, but rather a detente between the branches that led to a period of political stability and prosperity unmatched in US history.

[Alupis]

So one side packs, say 3 new justices onto the court to get their desired outcomes... until they lose an election. Then that next person packs 800 new justices so they can get their outcomes.

Do you see the problem?

That's the short sightedness the GP was commenting about, and it's kind of nutty to realize so few people comprehend such a basic concept. Yet, here we are.

MAD only works when both sides are rational.

[matthewdgreen]

We’re already in a place where one side is using the court as a tool to realize political outcomes. Whether you want to see it or not, the Immunity decision was a huge step in a dangerous direction; and there is certainly a bunch of evidence indicating that some justices on this Court are not dispassionate in their political views and will absolutely step into the democratic process to overturn voting results.

Nobody is packing the court right now. What’s on the table (and only as a discussion, not even as an actionable legislative proposal) is a reasonable package of term limits and meaningful ethics rules — rules that frankly shouldn’t even be a little bit controversial, or even necessary if the Court was doing an even mediocre job of self-policing. But if things get extreme and the Court does begin to cross political lines and override electoral decisions, then I would much rather see a Constitutional response than political violence. My hope is this possibility causes everyone to be as cautious as possible, rather than starting a political war nobody will win.

[Alupis]

> We’re already in a place where one side is using the court as a tool to realize political outcomes

> But if things get extreme and the Court does begin to cross political lines and override electoral decisions

This is now the information bubble that was also discussed in this thread.

No, "one side" is not using the court to realize political outcomes. Both sides are - and one side had a few decade head start if we really must sling mud. Some people don't like the outcomes recently, so they attack the courts as being stacked/abused/etc. forgetting all about the past few decades where they championed nearly every outcome...

In politics, you don't always get what you want. Some people find that concept inconceivable. When they don't get what they want, it must be because of cheating/abuse/criminality/whatever.

[matthewdgreen]

Here's a graphic showing the composition of the Supreme Court in terms of GOP vs. Democratic appointees over the past nine decades [1]. There were certainly periods of Dem dominance but they were relatively short compared to the overwhelming GOP dominance on that chart.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideological_leanings_of_United...

[shigawire]

>How many "most important elections of our lifetime" are we going to have?

How many more candidates will buck precedent and try to actively overturn election results?

In my estimation each election is quite consequential if at least one candidate is behaving in a way that undermines democratic norms.

[Varriount]

I do agree that the hyperbole often seem in the media ("the most important decision", etc.) is quite ridiculous. That being said, keep in mind the assumptions you make when thinking long-term.

For example, I've had it argued to me that that homosexual individuals shouldn't be allowed civil unions, as doing so would lead to the bankruptcy of the federal government. The "long-term thinking" here was that allowing unions between homosexual individuals would, at some future point, lead to allowing unions between polygamous groups*, which would then lead to people joining in unions for tax purposes, which would then lead to a disruptive loss of income for the government.

[ant6n]

Okay, here’s the first step: install a pluralist democracy via a representative democracy.

That’s gonna take perhaps 100 years, nobody is even talking about it. One party wants to move to some sort of crypto-fascism where a former but dwindling majority will stay in power forever. The other party fashions itself as the „only“ democratic choice against that, and enjoys that position of being the only choice… and doesn’t seem to see the irony that if you’re „the only choice“ in a democratic system, it’s not a democratic system.

In the meantime while fixing the system, please deal with the climate crisis, otherwise this whole „long term view“ will be moot.

[lmm]

The fact that the main way to achieve an outcome in the US is by changing the process is the outcome-vs-process dysfunctionality. It's not short-sighted thinking, it's realism. The US politico-legal environment has far more respect for process than for outcome, so processes have been co-opted to serve political purposes and if you try to simply follow the existing process or set a neutral process then you'll always lose.

[autoexec]

I worry that the idea is the process changes being made today will be used to prevent anyone else from having a hope in hell of being able to use it at any point in the future.