[lewisflude]

I know many musicians who love using Teenage Engineerings products for making music, performing live etc.

However, I do think there is a case to be made for falling into the trap of being more interested in the gear than the thing you're meant to do with the gear.

At the very least, Teenage Engineering hardware is generally very well designed, high quality and built to last. At least this product has some creative spirit behind it. I'm in love with the merge of Medieval and Modern Electronic here!

For an example of excessive consumerism, look no further than the Eurorack[1] space. They don't call it Eurocrack for nothing!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurorack

[pgt]

“Regular people use their speakers to listen to your music. Audiophiles use your music to listen to their speakers.” — Alan Parsons

[donaldihunter]

I don't think that was said by Alan Parsons. It was by a slashdotter in response to an Alan Parsons interview:

https://entertainment.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2663265&c...

[pgt]

Thanks, H/T to Tackhead then!

[IAmGraydon]

I’ve never heard that before. Hilarious and brilliant!

[Bluestein]

Seconded. Great quote.-

[bmitc]

People in general are pretty good at finding ways to feel superior to someone else, and that includes both audiophiles and musicians in this case.

[yungporko]

> However, I do think there is a case to be made for falling into the trap of being more interested in the gear than the thing you're meant to do with the gear.

that is literally the intention behind all modern music hardware (eurorack especially) i think. i've been a producer for nearly 20 years and i've still never seen anybody make genuinely good music with any of these things. not even once.

these 30-40 year old "enthusiast" types getting 17 views on their 28 minute "generative ambient jam #236" videos are basically an unlimited cash cow.

[pbronez]

Heh I feel called out. I love these kinds of things and don’t publish any music. For me, it’s about the joy of making music. It’s not a performance, it’s a recreational activity. It’s playful.

When I want productive music making, with the intention of publishing, a computer with a DAW is the obvious tool for the job. No question. Hands down.

Still, there are absolutely people who publish fun tracks and perform live with this stuff:

https://youtube.com/@teftymeems

https://youtube.com/@espenkraft

https://youtube.com/@hainbach

https://youtube.com/@elisetrouw

https://youtube.com/@truecuckoo

https://youtube.com/@bobeats

And that’s just the indie fringe. Chvrches uses hardware synths. The Stranger Things soundtrack includes a critical sequence programmed on a modular sequencer for microtonal control. The Weekend’s Dawn FM video album features a Moog One prominently. Taylor Swift performed with a special edition Prophet 12. Etc etc

[geethree]

Hmm… “good” is relative. Lots of stuff out there

Ciani has been a pioneer in this space since the 70’e https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Ciani

Check out the boiler room set of https://caterinabarbieri.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W25FTlO42VY

Vogelsinger has pieces all over YouTube. https://helenevogelsinger.bandcamp.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYxheEGl2oM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W25FTlO42VY

Some others that come to mind: https://polypores.bandcamp.com/

https://bluetech.bandcamp.com/music

Evan B’s label for this music only https://www.behindtheskymusic.com/

[Wurdan]

I'm a 30-40 year old with absolutely no interest in making music, but I want every single thing which crosses my news feed from Teenage Engineering. So yeah, that checks out.

[Retr0id]

People with the talent/skills/motivation to make music will end up making music with whatever they can get their hands on, and for anyone who doesn't fall into that category, no amount of equipment purchasing will fix it.

[lukas099]

And folks who make music for a living don't generally have lots of disposable income.

[JansjoFromIkea]

OP-1's portability, synth range and 4 track combo seems to have been pretty successful creatively from what I've seen, beyond that they've been extremely limited though. Closest I've seen them come is the OP-Z but a combo of build quality issues and just not getting the idea across very well has crippled it. There's a decent argument a lot of those people could've achieved the same with some much cheaper 4 track alternative but it probably wouldn't have drawn them in as much.

Pocket Operators are a great fidget toy but the collecting nature of them all is a bit annoying (saying that as someone who bought a bunch of them and only ever really enjoyed 3 of them: 14, 32 and 33). Useless as music outside of maybe an drum beat to improv over from what I can see though?

Have very little issue with them myself though. Even absurd projects like the Choir are kinda neat to me; toys for rich people to burn money on which may result in other people stealing the good bits and making something better and more accessible.

Think whatever this is is a big misstep after the EP-133 done a good job addressing a bunch of their past issues as a business (albeit with a lot of room to improve)

[code_biologist]

I think you're largely right but man there's some gold in the jams. Here's a 1 minute synth jam video posted to youtube 17 years ago, it still blows me away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8Kiw4aoex4

Of course he's brilliantly talented and became Dorian Concept, to your point.

[Bluestein]

In today's digital world, fraught with impermanence - to find things going that far back is fascinating.-

PS. Much more so when it "chronicles" the development of talent, such as is the case here.-

[doctorhandshake]

Nice find!

[BoredPositron]

Might not be your cup of tea but finneas the brother/producer of billie eilish made a lot of top 10 hits while using an OP-1…

[Almondsetat]

Just like 99% of golfers buying expensive and cool clubs are middle aged white rich dudes who just play with their friends two times a month and brag.

It's no coincidence that we invented the "enthusiast" or "prosumer" categories precisely to separate certain products from professionals

[dartos]

People make some good tracks with the OP-1.

I think dipplo (a big edm artist) used the OP-1 in his live sets for a while.

[audunw]

> and i've still never seen anybody make genuinely good music with any of these things. not even once.

So? Why does that matter?

I have a decent second hand Nord Piano 3 .. I certainly can't make good music on it, but I have fun playing it. Sure, with that kind of instrument I'm sure there's plenty of people making great music on it, but does that matter to me? Not really

I'm willing to bet the overwhelming majority of instruments sold are never used to make genuinely good music. People buy them to challenge themselves, to have fun, to learn new things.

Some instruments are more aimed at that kind of usage rather than actually making good music, and I think it's fair to say that Teenage Engineering stuff falls in that category.

I bought a couple of pocket operators at some point. I found it very fun and challenging to work within the constraints of those devices. I would never use any professional music making software because it's just too overwhelming. But with the Pocket Operator I feel motivated to try making some simple jams and have fun with it. It's never going to become anything serious and that's OK.

[tayistay]

Well, probably wouldn't be able to convince you that the artists playing shows using Euroroack (or Elektron, or TE) in front of bigger audiences that you ever have are "genuinely good."

[maccard]

> However, I do think there is a case to be made for falling into the trap of being more interested in the gear than the thing you're meant to do with the gear.

Have you ever met a guitarist[0], or a golfer? I play guitar, and as a teenager I spent _years_ playing a cheap encore guitar plugged into a no-name 15w amp imaginable with a zoom 505 [1]. I practiced for hours upon and hours and sounded awful. Now as an adult, I get to spend some money on the hobby and sound like what I thought I sounded like aged 15!

[0] - https://www.guitarworld.com/features/gear-acquisition-syndro... [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGKrBrCw-aQ (not me, but representative)

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I played for years, on a cheap, short-scale, Univox bass, and getting a used Rick[0] (don’t judge the hair. It was in style, back then) made a huge difference.

I no longer play, but did get get pretty good. In that case, the tool made the difference (and a buttload of daily practice. I felt I needed to earn the right to play that thing).

But I think everyone knows some rich bastard, that has a handmade bespoke axe, and is absolutely terrible.

[0] https://cmarshall.com/MulletMan.jpg (I still have that guitar, and the neck is still true.)

[whstl]

I agree 100%. Getting a Gibson was also a game changer for me. Today there is cheaper stuff that is also good quality (but you gotta dig), but back in the day you needed the kind of gear used by pro musicians to actually go the extra mile.

And it's a good observation about bespoke guitars: I feel like the problem is people trying to go beyond that, with the illusion that "even more expensive" will be even better. Then they start buying things that are hella expensive but don't give much more (due to diminishing returns, or sometimes they actually suck, like bad handmade instruments), or doing things like collecting 20, 30, 40 overdrive pedals just to find the "perfect one".

[maccard]

> Today there is cheaper stuff that is also good quality (but you gotta dig)

I think I disagree here - You don't have to dig for cheap and quality anymore. An entry level squier from the last 15 years is sufficient quality for a beginner IMO, and one step up (classic vibe) is firmly into the "instrument for life" territory these days. You only need to upgrade for preference/feel.

I have the luxury of regularly getting to play a Gibon SG from the 70's which has been well maintained. Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful instrument in it's own way, but my 2007 MiM strat is a _far_ superior instrument.

[jimnotgym]

To me the biggest change has been to amplifiers. Mid range practice amps now sound passible. Digital modelling is pretty good, and helps keep the volume down. That wasn't true before, most practice amps made guitars sound horrible. I always recommend people spend more on the amp than the guitar. I have a motley collection of cheap guitars and they all sound preety good into my Fender Twin... my Classic Vibe strat (as another commenter said) sounds perfect, as does my homemade Tele with homemade pickups.

[maccard]

Digital Modelling is a game changer. I've got a Helix Stomp XL, and it's replaced every pedal and amp in my house for guitar & bass, _and_ it's smaller than a pedalboard.

Even the Pod Go (which I had before this) is completely usable up to a level where you can absolutely afford to replace it with a helix.

[whstl]

Yes, I agree with that. You don't have to look too far.

By "dig" I mean you can't go to a store and get a random $100 instrument, you gotta figure out that Squier is good.

[knuckleheads]

Hair looks great!

[lewisflude]

It also reminds me of how a lot of the most coveted guitars, pedals, amps weren't selected by the guitarists who made iconic because they had some sort of secret sauce in them, but literally because they were the cheapest/most convenient thing available at the time.

Also, I love the sound of a good crunchy 15w practise amp. I think one day those old zoom pedals and the Line 6 bean will be highly coveted!

[whstl]

It was like that with Jazzmasters and Big Muffs. And even Les Pauls in the 60s and 80s. They were just cheap and widely available used and out of fashion, but then someone started using it again and the prices just exploded.

[lewisflude]

The Mascis effect

[wintermutestwin]

Old Zoom pedals are currently coveted as a good, cheap way to shoegaze...

[camillomiller]

I think this can be generalized to any hobby. When you sorta know you can't really aspire to the art for your own normal limitations, expanding gear knowledge becomes part of the enjoyment, as a sort of surrogate. Nothing wrong with that, though, as it really keeps the economy of some niche gear producers going for the benefit of everyone! :D

[hnlmorg]

I'm pretty sure that was the GPs point. He just exampled two specific hobbies to illustrate his point.

[maccard]

That's exactly my point, I just used my own two hobbies as an example.

[brtkdotse]

> However, I do think there is a case to be made for falling into the trap of being more interested in the gear than the thing you're meant to do with the gear.

Is that such a bad thing? It’s supposed to be a hobby, if geeking out on gear relaxes you you shouldn’t have to feel bad for not being productive with it.

[fellerts]

Not at all! I'm reminded of this blog post: https://brooker.co.za/blog/2023/04/20/hobbies.html

[lewisflude]

Many of my hobbies (mechanical keyboards, flashlights, guitar pedals) have been addictive and going as incredibly deep as I have has made me appreciate each item to a new degree.

[wintermutestwin]

I am a shitty bedroom guitarist that has pro-level gear that I get endless hours of enjoyment from buying/selling and "knob turning." I probably spend 50% of my guitar hobby time on non-playing activities and it all brings me much joy.

The fact that there are tons of consumers like me makes this gear more affordable for everyone, including low level artists.

[brtkdotse]

> endless hours of enjoyment from buying/selling

I get a bunch of satisfaction purchasing used high end gear, owning it for a few months and then selling it for more or less what I bought it for. I usually get some nice social interaction with the seller/buyer as a bonus.

[kashyapc]

Very well said on gear-trap. Last night I was watching an old video[1] of the kind of gear Ólafur Arnalds uses.

I was amazed and aghast at the amount of expensive "outboard" gear and other vintage hardware such as "compressors", "filter banks", "levelling amplifiers", Korg PS-3100, a vintage analog synthesizer which costs more than 20,000 (!) euros,tape recorders, etc.

Many of these things I didn't even know existed. But I'm just a newbie to learning music.

It's a privileged position to be in, to just acquire whatever vintage hardware, instead of resorting to emulated software to create the sounds.

At least, he (and others like Nils Frahm) can justify it, as a highly successful professional musicians. But many hobbyist musicians seem to fall into the trap of, "if only I get that Roland Juno-60, I'll make more awesome music".

[1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=2jTHNuvuQC0

[criddell]

> "if only I get that Roland Juno-60, I'll make more awesome music"

But you might! A new instrument can inspire you and make you want to play more music and that can lead to improvement.

All things considered, the Medieval isn't all that expensive. All you are really risking is approx. $100 if buying new (because you can resell on eBay) and practically nothing if you buy it used.

[kashyapc]

I agree; a new instrument can inspire you. But many people tend to fall into the so-called "gear trap", especially those of us who work in tech.

I was not referring to the "Medieval" in specific, but just lamenting about losing the forest for the trees. It's a bit like the monthly, "the perfect note-taking tool" discussion cycle we get into here on HN.

If you're conscious of the potential gear trap, more power to you. :-)

[isoprophlex]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurorack#/media/File%3AKeith...

How the hell do you replicate your sounds between performances, recordings, etc.

This must be the musical equivalent of people sending eachother zip files with source code instead of using git, lol.

EDIT: don't get me wrong, not dissing the approach! It looks glorious and I wish I could play with one once..!

[sixeyes]

Many performers use a semi-permanent patch. You effectively build a synthesizer with exactly the affordances you want, and carry the thing to the gig patched up. (Those setups tend to focus a lot of cable management too, lol, so that you can actually reach the controls)

Or, some do improvised live patching, in which the goal is NOT to replicate sounds.

[throwaway030]

I'd say most performances on these are accompanied by a DAW. Then you just record it and re-use sounds between performances. For some instruments/tracks you probably want the freedom to play it live and accept that it sounds different between performances. In fact that's the whole appeal of it in my opinion.

[maccard]

Two choices - either you record this and work with the recordings, or you accept that no two performances will ever be the same and make it part of the appeal.

[ygra]

There was recently a post and discussion on this very topic here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40954679

Seems complicated, indeed.

[semi-extrinsic]

As people also pointed out in that thread, some classical instruments like church organs have exactly the same problem.

Look at this one for instance: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_console#/media/File%3A... It has 522 draw knobs and 796 total controls for the musician to use. How do you play something on this organ to sound exactly like another organ?

[thih9]

Video (audio) demo; these are different and simpler consoles, but this still gives an overview of the issue:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMLWLM_RbNs

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvfawKQVw04

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkmn4AO85L4

[lewisflude]

I like to take photos and sometimes write things down! In a sense you're assembling a sound sculpture. But once you've found a great sound and lost it, sometimes you end up finding something very similar but not quite 100%! You see this a lot with live performances from any electronic musician to be honest.

Still, most of the time you find something incredible and it's gone as quickly as it appeared!

[kowbell]

> In a sense you're assembling a sound sculpture.

Or, in the case of the Medieval, a sound scripture ;)

[arnorhs]

You don't (mostly, except by ear) and that's part of the allure of it.

[thih9]

That’s up to you how you do it.

You can sample certain sounds and perform with that instead.

You can patch it once and never touch again.

You can learn how to patch it exactly the same, even with 100s of cables.

You can keep parts of the patch the same. Some modules can help, saving their internal state or communicating with other modules on their own.

Etc.

[TheFragenTaken]

GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) is very real, and talked about a lot in the music industry. There are books, and papers studying this.

[AstroJetson]

Good thing that there is nothing like that in other hobbies like Woodworking, Ham Radio, etc.

[zeristor]

Astronomical telescopes, and photography are further examples

[AstroJetson]

Oh yea, 42nd Street Photo held 2nd and 3rd mortgages on my house for years.

[0mp]

Teenage Engineering gear is not meant to last. It is an illusion created by how their product looks like and how it is marketed. Once the warranty expires, you won't be able to repair products like TX-6. I've gotten bitten by that myself. TE does not really provide much support to its users to help them maintain and repair this expensive gear.

[tetha]

I kind of have the same thought. This very much looks interesting and I like the whole folk/medieval metal scene quite a lot.

But the realist and the person in my who doesn't like spending money both agree: If $350 - $500 are on the table, I'm probably better off with a good keyboard with MIDI support, since it's a more open-ended and flexible tool. And my DAW can do a lot of the looping, looped recording, effects and such.

But enough negativity, this thing still looks really, really cool.

[lynx23]

What you describe is called GAS, Gear Acquisition Syndrome.

Besides, Eurorack is even more dangerous when it comes to GAS.