[Ray20]

>The Ukrainians will decide for themselves

Does not seem like it. They are not asked. They are banned from leaving the country. They are captured right on the streets and forcefully, under threat of death, sent to fight in war.

> They will also decide -- for themselves -- whether the losses they are taking are sustainable, or "worth" the just end to this war that they seek.

No, it's already decided for them - and decided otherwise. That's the reason borders are closed and Ukrainians are sent to frontlines against their will

> Your idea of what they "need", what is worth dying for That's not my idea, that's their idea - otherwise there would be no need for closed borders and forced conscription.

[psunavy03]

Let me rephrase that more accurately . . . the democratically-elected government of Ukraine is exercising its legitimate authority to draft people into its military during a severe war that it did not start.

Just like the Allies did in World War II.

[racional]

So presumably their view would be that the Allied cause during WW 2 was wholly illegitimate, because after all, those nations had conscription policies as well.

[racional]

They are captured right on the streets and forcefully, under threat of death,

The "under threat of death" part is pure BS of course.

[Ray20]

All the data (status of human rights organizations in this area, statements of officials, law enforcement agencies, the reaction of "democratic" institutions to such cases when they leaked to public) shows, that after civilian are captured on the street - civillian will be tortured until he goes to the frontlines or until he dies. Just two option: go to war or die via torture.

[aguaviva]

What "data"?

You'll definitely need to provide reliable sources for the specific assertion you're making here.

[racional]

You still don't get to tell them when they "need" to negotiate.