[talldayo]

I don't understand why I (or any Open Source contributor) would spend time supporting a product like this. Unless you are paying me, I don't care. You can gussy your website up with friendly colors and modern art, but you're still asking me to be a suck-up for a business. Why would we do that?

I get why a business wants this; "developer engagement" = "free work" in most situations. But these greedy attempts at getting everyone under one umbrella entirely misses the aspect of shared ownership that makes Open Source successful in the first place. Partially-open business software only attracts sycophants and abuse-cases to contribute, which only justifies a less-open approach.

[ezekg]

This is a false dichotomy. You assert that because a company wants to share its source code that it's also soliciting free work. Personally, I’ve never asked for free work. I don’t want free work. I actually don’t even care if anybody contributes at all -- I didn’t make my company Fair Source to get free labor or contributions. I did it to ensure the continuity and longevity of my core product, to give back, and to open up new marketing and distribution channels. I’m sure others share my sentiment.

If somebody does attempt to extort free labor, that’s on them; it’s not the fault of Fair Source, or Open Source for that matter. In that case, they should reap what they sow.

I hope you can see the value in a company sharing their core product with no strings attached. The world doesn't have to be so black and white i.r.t. OSS.

[talldayo]

I think you're also looking at it from the wrong direction. Communities exist around software because they perceive collective ownership of the program. If you don't want contributions then that's fine, but you're certainly not attracting new audiences by showing current customers your source code. It's marketing, plain and simple. Spending money on marketing is fine, but don't expect developers to not call you out on the advertisement.

The positioning of "fair source" as a middle-ground between business and community is an industry-wide joke. Do it to assuage your paranoid customers or whatever, but don't convince yourself for a second that you're putting the community before yourself.

[ezekg]

> don't convince yourself for a second that you're putting the community before yourself.

In some ways, I'm putting the sustainability of my business above user freedom, yes, but in other ways I put user freedom above sustainability by making the source code available to read, use, modify, and redistribute for nearly any use case. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with this either. The space between open source and closed source can be a gradient; it doesn't have to be strictly black and white. Open Source is different, yes, but that doesn't mean that people can't benefit from my software being Fair Source while I build a sustainable business. I can value building a sustainable business and providing user freedom at the same time. That's the whole point of Fair Source -- both are possible.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong direction.

[the_mitsuhiko]

Armin from Sentry here.

> I don't understand why I (or any Open Source contributor) would spend time supporting a product like this.

You might if it scratches your itch, you might not if it doesn't. Here is how I hope people engage with licenses like the FSL: when they start a business rather than going all closed source, they evaluate a license like the FSL. I think it's longer term a superior choice because it protects your business but also longer term ensures that what you create becomes a public good if you step away from it.

On the range of Open Source - Fair Source - Shared Source - Closed Source I would argue that Fair Source is a pretty decent compromise. Not for everybody, but I hope for a lot of folks out there.

[talldayo]

> because it protects your business

That's the only argument in favor of it. Anyone that isn't in it for the money won't give your product a second look.

I'm not sure what your visibility is inside teams, but seeing one of these "BSL" or "fair source" licenses usually terminates the product evaluation with a laugh. People don't treat these licenses even remotely close to Open Source because they're not. They're a business that is spending money to promote an identity that goes against their core desires. I'd rather you be an honest moneygrubber instead of a business muppet wearing a friendly mask.

Community and public good is the first and only priority when developing Open Source software. Trust me when I say that nobody is fooled when you refuse to give these values top-billing in your list of priorities.

[the_mitsuhiko]

You absolutely do not need to treat these licenses as Open Source, because they are not. However the FSL for instance fully converts into Open Source which means that after the lockup period, it's unquestionable Open Source.

I have been a developer long enough that I have seen bad license choices harm projects even long after the commercial entity that developed it stepped away.

Nobody tries to fool anyone, we're trying to establish a better licensing regime than keeping things closed source.

As for the visibility into teams part: from my experience developers have a lot of opinions of licenses, yet in practical terms these very rarely result in making decisions. It's more common that developers will be told off by the legal department about a license choice, than that a developer would on their own opt against the use of something.

[ezekg]

> Anyone that isn't in it for the money won't give your product a second look.

I think Sentry in particular has proven that you're wrong here. They have over 10k users self-hosting their software under a Fair Source license [0], which goes against your assumption that it will fail. It has already succeeded.

[0]: https://blog.sentry.io/sentry-is-now-fair-source/

[whit537]

> I'm not sure what your visibility is inside teams, but seeing one of these "BSL" or "fair source" licenses usually terminates the product evaluation with a laugh.

Eric Raymond had a similar take. I wrote this response for him:

https://openpath.chadwhitacre.com/2024/widespread-use-of-a-f...

tl;dr Sentry, in addition to 100,000+ SaaS customers, has 10,000+ unmonetized self-hosted users from hobbyists up to FAANG companies. This is strong evidence against your claim that Fair Source licensing "usually terminates the product evaluation with a laugh."