[tsimionescu]

> A called function can throw through a non-noexcept function to a higher-level exception handler no problem.

This is exactly the problem. To have made this a useful feature, it should have been more restrictive: a noexcept function should not have been allowed to call any function or operator or lambda that is not marked noexcept. Some extra syntax to allow function templates to be made "conditionally noexcept" would have been necessary, but overall the feature would have had a real use and real power to help make code safer, and more performant.

Java has the first part down, for the class of checked exceptions: a function that doesn't throw can't call functions that do (except in try/catch blocks, but that's largely irrelevant). The annoyances come because of the missing second part - the ability to make a generic function that throws for some type parameters, but doesn't for others.

[cesarb]

> Java has the first part down, for the class of checked exceptions: a function that doesn't throw can't call functions that do (except in try/catch blocks, but that's largely irrelevant).

That's not actually true, it's possible to do "sneaky throws" (https://www.baeldung.com/java-sneaky-throws) of a checked exception from a method which isn't declared to throw that checked exception. The classic example is Class.newInstance(), which propagates any exception from the called constructor. Other ways are calling code from JVM languages other than Java, which do not have the same "checked exception" concept (like Kotlin: see https://kotlinlang.org/docs/exceptions.html and https://kotlinlang.org/docs/java-to-kotlin-interop.html#chec...), generics trickery to confuse the compiler, and manually creating JVM bytecode.

[tsimionescu]

Sure, but that's essentially the same as using explicit jumps through raw assembly instructions to go around C++'s destructor guarantees. That is, when your Java process runs non-Java code, of course this can defeat certain Java guarantees. No programming language can make promises for semantics of external code like this.

[cesarb]

That's still the case in pure Java code. The "Class.newInstance()" method is a public method on the core Java API, calling "MyClass.class.newInstance()" is mostly equivalent to "new MyClass()". And the generics trick in the "sneaky throws" article I linked is also pure Java code, without any calls to "sun.misc.Unsafe".

[tsimionescu]

Class.newInstance() is a known unsafe method and has been deprecated for quite some time now (since Java 9). It's similar to Haskell's unsafePerformIO from this point of view.

The generics hole is indeed interesting, but it's ultimately a known limitation of how generics were implemented in Java, the presence of type inference, and the design of the exception hierarchy, than an intentional feature. When inferring the type of T to apply in that example, there is no good unique solution: inferring T = Throwable would have been safer, but it makes many simple cases behave unexpectedly, especially with lambdas. Inferring T = RuntimeException is unexpected and unsafe, but in practice it makes many common cases be way more usable, so a call was made to do it, despite the hole.

C++'s templates wouldn't have a similar problem, as they actually instantiate the definition at compile time and can re-check it. Also, there is no equivalent issue to the ambiguous inference, because C++ doesn't do type inference of this kind at all, and anyway there is no problem of the exception hierarchy. Even if there were, C++ could also take the opposite choice than Java, and explicitly infer the safer option when both `noexcept` and `potentially-throws` were possible.

And of course Lombok is a tool for modifying the compilation of Java, so writing Lombok code is not exactly writing pure Java.

[account42]

That would have been too limiting since there are many (e.g. C) functions that can never throw but are not marked noexcept. Not being able to mark your function noexcept just because you call some standard math function would be counterproductive.

[tsimionescu]

There were ways around this. C functions in the standard library could easily be marked noexcept, for one. Extern C could also imply noexcept. Also, explicit try/catch blocks could be required when calling a potentially-throwing function from a noexcept function - slightly annoying, but not a huge problem in practice.

Overall this was just another case of the C++ community's preference for speed over safety and robustness. Nothing new, but still a shame to see that the attitude hasn't changed at all.

[account42]

> There were ways around this. C functions in the standard library could easily be marked noexcept, for one.

C++ standard library function yes, C standard library functions, incloding those imported into C++ are more complicated since on most platforms those are not provided by the C++ implementation but some other lower level library. Third-party libraries are the bigger concern though.

> Extern C could also imply noexcept.

In theory this might be correct but in practice this will cause problems with C functions that take callbacks which the user might want to throw from. These are already problematic especially since the C code won't unwind anything but you'd still need to concern yourself with potentially breaking user code.

> Also, explicit try/catch blocks could be required when calling a potentially-throwing function from a noexcept function - slightly annoying, but not a huge problem in practice.

Yes, but avoiding that is the whole point. The try-cach for potentially when you call potentially throwing functions is already implicitly provided by current noexcept and if your noexcept function only calls only noexcept functions then the compiler can already elide all that.

> Overall this was just another case of the C++ community's preference for speed over safety and robustness.

Not at all. If that was the case then noexcept would only be a compiler hint and exceptions bubbling up to noexcept functions would be undefined behavior. Arguably that would be better than what we have now.

[tsimionescu]

> C++ standard library function yes, C standard library functions, incloding those imported into C++ are more complicated since on most platforms those are not provided by the C++ implementation but some other lower level library. Third-party libraries are the bigger concern though.

Since noexcept is a compilation-level hint, it only matters that the declaration contains them in the <cstdXX> headers, not who provides the implementations. And since C functions can't deal with exceptions thrown from callbacks, it would make sense to annotate any function pointer that you provide with noexcept as well.

> Yes, but avoiding that is the whole point. The try-cach for potentially when you call potentially throwing functions is already implicitly provided by current noexcept and if your noexcept function only calls only noexcept functions then the compiler can already elide all that.

The current implementation calls std::terminate() if an exception is caught. That needn't be the case in practice: you could well handle the exception in a meaningful way and continue execution. Also, having the programmer explicitly do this is valuable in itself, even if they also just call std::terminate(). For example, with the way noexcept is implemented today, you have no notification if a function you're calling goes from noexcept to potentially throwing until your program actually crashes. If noexcept was an actual compiler-checked keyword, your code would stop compiling if one of the functions you rely on started throwing exceptions, and you could decide what to do (maybe catch it, maybe find an alternative, etc).

> Not at all. If that was the case then noexcept would only be a compiler hint and exceptions bubbling up to noexcept functions would be undefined behavior. Arguably that would be better than what we have now.

Crashing the program is of course better than UB. But it's still the worse possible thing to happen other than that. It basically makes noexcept functions be the most scary functions to ever call, instead of being the safest. And if you want to write a piece of code that can never throw an exception, the compiler still won't help you in any way to do that, it's up to you to do it correctly or crash.