[gregdoesit]

I’m one of the paying Kagi customer who wants to make Kagi my default iOS search engine, but cannot. It’s maddening that even though I paid for both my iPhone / iPad and for Kagi, Apple for some reason makes it impossible for me to make this choice (that I already made by paying for Kagi).

On Chrome at least this is possible, even if it’s additional steps (I have not used the extension though there.)

[JumpCrisscross]

> I’m one of the paying Kagi customer who wants to make Kagi my default iOS search engine, but cannot

FYI, there is a workaround [1]. It's trash that Apple makes us do this. But you can.

Granted, it nudged me to switch to Orion as my main desktop browser.

[1] https://help.kagi.com/kagi/getting-started/setting-default.h...

[kemiller]

How’s the stability on Orion lately? I want to use it be plugin compatible was too dicey.

[shepherdjerred]

Orion crashed way too often for me. I used Orion for a month or two and switched back to Firefox in early July.

[nerdponx]

Been using it for months on MacOS without a single crash.

[shepherdjerred]

Weird. I don't remember if there was a pattern or not. Maybe there's a specific site that causes it.

I'll give it another try later this year.

[JumpCrisscross]

> How’s the stability on Orion lately?

Very good. My only gripes are with the 1Password extension.

[justinclift]

So far (only an occasional user) it's been solid for me. Though I've only been using it in depth every few weeks, and that's mostly to read manga online while waiting for stuff.

[hcurtiss]

I too am a paying customer. Surprisingly -- at least to me -- it's easy to do with Microsoft's Edge browser on iOS. I use it as default on both iOS and macOS.

[everfrustrated]

It's only easy now because Microsoft had a lot of runs in with the US and EU regulators on this specific issue in the past.

[lozenge]

And because MS wants to increase its userbase on IOS and macOS. Meanwhile Windows Start Menu is locked to Edge and Bing.

[dmnmnm]

> Meanwhile Windows Start Menu is locked to Bing

Not in the EU market.

They recently decoupled that part (search, but I don't know if they did it for edge too) and made bing in the start menu a store app that can be uninstalled if you don't want it to be available on your system anymore.

And are providing APIs for others to use:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/apps/develop/searc...

The only reason why you can't use google there is because.. Google doesn't care. Just like how they never released apps for the Windows Phone store, they have no intention of touching the one on Windows.

Microsoft has been hit so many times by the EU that they really care to respect our regulations now. Not just the "letter of the law" but the "spirit of the law" too.

The same should (or has already happened, I don't know.. because I actually use Edge and didn't care to look deeper into it) happen for Edge:

https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/5/23859537/microsoft-windows...

Of note, among the things that have changed recently in Windows 11, you can disable the news page from msn on Widgets, and Teams is no longer a part of Windows.

[lozenge]

I expect Google will release their implementation when the Windows feature gets into stable. Implementing something 9 years after Windows 10 is released doesn't show "respecting the EU" to me.

[10tacobytes]

Correct. Minute userbase equals no leverage to extract tolls. If they ended up with the sort of dominant position they had at one point with IE on Mac they'd do this very thing and more.

There aren't many shenanigans that MS didn't pioneer in the 90s.

[rkagerer]

Meanwhile Windows Start Menu is locked to Edge and Bing

Why does software suck these days.

[fragmede]

Because the money for it is stuck in weird places. I can't write some small bit of software and just sell that for a decent price. People don't pay for software these days, so my best hope is to give it away for free and then running ads. And then, if it's any good, someone will come by and make an open source clone and give that away for free, tanking sales/ad revenue. So the money in writing software is by working at a huge company that has found money with software, like Google and selling ads.

[mh-]

This is really the most concise (and depressing) explanation of the situation I've seen.

When I was a kid, I dreamt of being a solo programmer that had a few successful desktop programs. Think mIRC, WinAmp, WinRar. Despite the audience for that being >100x larger than it was in the 90s, I'd bet the number of solo shops doing that successfully isn't a whole lot larger than it was then.

[b3ing]

People would buy Windows. That was one of the few things I bought

[tracerbulletx]

"for some reason" (the reason was 20 billion per year in cash)

[chatmasta]

I’m surprised that it’s just Google getting hit with this enforcement and not Apple too.

[azemetre]

This lawsuit will likely be used for further litigation in other companies.

About time too, nothing more undemocratic than unregulated monopolies.

[te_chris]

Some few billion reasons*

[Malp]

I recommend trying out Quiche Browser on iOS, or Orion from Kagi- both will support Kagi as a search option. Spotlight search still goes to Google, but I find that acceptable.

[immibis]

You chose to buy a platform with severe restrictions. It's not like we can blame monopoly power, because Android phones are easy to get. It was legitimately your choice - it seems like for some reason you wanted the restrictions.

[usr1106]

Choice seems to be an euphemism for everything related to private IT: For PCs there is Microsoft vs Apple. (I use Linux, but that's not for the broad masses currently.) For phones you either pay a premium to enter the Apple walled garden or you prostitute your digital life and get spied on by Google and its advertising cancer.

What would we say if there were only 2 car makers, 2 grocery chains, 2 companies building houses?

[paulryanrogers]

> What would we say if there were only 2 car makers, 2 grocery chains, 2 companies building houses?

We'd argue endlessly because of pedantry over 'monopoly', whilst the oligopolists sell us down the river.

[plausibility]

Look no further for evidence than New Zealand. There are two major grocery store chains (Foodstuffs, who own New World, Four Square, and Pak n Save) and Woolworths Group -- obviously we have the smaller Asian marts and produce stores too, but most people only have one of the big stores nearby to their towns.

There are two major building materials suppliers (Carters and Fletchers). There's one manufacturer of drywall (Gib) that is easier to get council plan approval for than any other cheaper manufacturers of drywall because they provide some material strength documents that saves the councils some engineering review time and effort.

We technically have 4 major banks, but 3 of them are just offshoots of big Australian banks and siphon the insane profits offshore.

The government keeps making investigation commissions into breaking these up, but doesn't do anything. The companies just point fingers back and forth at each other blaming "the competition" for price gouging. Meanwhile the recommendation from the politicians is we cut back on avocado toast, lattes, and our Netflix subscription.

[usr1106]

Finland is nearly as bad. 20 years ago there were only 3 food chains. All domestic and playing the rules "no price competition". So food prices were about 30% higher than in Germany for example (these a very different countries so lack of competition is only one reason). Then Lidl (discounter of German origin) entered the market. The first years the incumbents fought it with unfair practices, but in the end it led to more price competition with everybody having to offer cheaper choices. 2 of the incumbents have since merged (with some regulatory limitations) so we are back to 3 players, 2 playing "according to the oligopoly book" and one doing things different, at least offering some choice.

Banks are not much better. There are a couple of small players additionally to the 3 big ones, but competition is limited to very few products. If you are interested in something else, choices are very poor.

[immibis]

If the choices are substantially different, you have a choice. Windows or Linux or Mac is a real choice - just because you'd prefer Haiku doesn't mean you don't have a choice. There's a huge range of android phones, and many of them have been reverse engineered enough to run non-google versions of Android (find out before buying). I have a PinePhone, but I don't use it regularly. It runs nearly-mainline Linux. Even things like Apache and X11 if I want it to.

[usr1106]

I am typing this on a phone running SailfishOS. Still that's hardly a real choice for me who has worked 20 years as a phone or Linux developer. No banks, no public transit tickets, no city bike, no you name it.

Not an option for the wide public.

[immibis]

So the actual lack of choice here is not the phone, but the apps. No different from having to install Windows to run your apps in 2003.

[fsflover]

> For phones you either pay a premium to enter the Apple walled garden or you prostitute your digital life and get spied on by Google

There is also a GNU/Linux option here. Sent from my Librem 5.

> I use Linux, but that's not for the broad masses currently

Unless "broad massses" require some unique MS Office or Photoshop functionality, they can easily switch to Linux. My relatives did and are happy.

[LoganDark]

> Sent from my Librem 5.

How well is that holding up nowadays, as a phone?

[fsflover]

Calls a texts work fine. I didn't try MMS, but on the forums people managed to make it work. Battery life is not very long, 4-5 hours of use or 20 hours of suspend.

I'm really happy to be able to run desktop apps (also on a big screen!) and have full control over my phone.

[idle_zealot]

Compromise on your computing freedom, compromise on your attention and privacy, when both providers are out to fuck you it doesn't really feel like you have a meaningful choice to make. Asking for an environment where fucking your customers isn't allowed feels like the only option.

[immibis]

Many Android devices can be de-Googled. Also, let's not pretend Apple isn't spying on your iCloud account to protect the children.

[idle_zealot]

I have a Pixel with Graphene on it. It's not de-Googled though, because Google successfully entrenched their services as a dependency of the majority of apps on the platform. Graphene makes yet another compromise by installing Play Services in a sandbox, which still lets it spy on you (but less) in exchange for enabling most (not all) Android apps to run. You can't really escape the compromises if you want a capable pocket computer. Compromises borne not of technical requirements or limitations, but of decisions that some of the largest companies in human history have made to fuck you.

[jlkuester7]

Big fan of Graphene! The balance I personally prefer is to use Shelter to create a "work profile" and install Play Services in there along with any apps that must have Play Services. Then, I only enable the work profile when I need to use those apps.

[callalex]

Which store can I buy these de-google’d phones at with support? Also your second statement is just factually incorrect.

[mmh0000]

I don't know about "factually incorrect" I believe this[1] is what the OP was vaguely referring to.

Apple says they're not doing CSAM scanning anymore, but there's no way to verify they're being truthful. And given everything known about corporate America, it would be foolish to believe them.

[1] https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Expanded_Protections_...

[immibis]

I can think of one way to test if Apple is scanning for CSAM, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[fsflover]

> your second statement is just factually incorrect

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25074959

https://sneak.berlin/20231005/apple-operating-system-surveil...

[bshacklett]

Unfortunately, you lose a significant amount of functionality by degoogling. Any app which relies on Google services, which is a large number, will be broken.

[malfist]

That's the power of monopoly, or in this case duopoly. You don't get to choose to not buy into the platform

[immibis]

But you do. You get to choose to buy into the other platform, which is significantly more open. If for some reason you choose not to, then you obviously don't value openness very much.

[dangus]

In what sane healthy market is two choices enough?

Imagine saying that about everything else in your life. Don't want to buy a Ford car? You can buy a Toyota. There are no other car brands in the entire world. IHG, Hyatt, Choice Hotels, Best Western, Wyndham, Radisson, they don't exit.

Don't want to stay at the Hilton? You're in luck, you can go to the Mariott, that's it.

Don't want to buy a t-shirt at Target? Well, Walmart sells t-shirts, and nobody else sells any t-shirts.

This would be astoundingly ridiculous anywhere else but technoloy. Even credit card processing networks have four options (Visa, MasterCard, Discover, and American Express).

As an example of how this works in other industries, US antitrust regulators automatically decline any merger/acquisition US airlines that would put their marketshare above 20%. And that's after deregulation!

IMO any market that has less than ~3-5 viable purchase options for customers needs to have extensive government intervention to keep the market fair and innovative.

[stubish]

If only the world was so simple and one dimensional and we never needed to compromise. Lets have 5 phones, each representing the pinnacle of a single attribute I care about, none of them actually meeting my needs.

[redserk]

Have you been paying attention to Google’s moves the last few years or are you just here to blast Apple?

They’re not the forever-open platform you’re purporting them to be.

Look at the increasing push for device attestation via SafetyNet or whatever it is called now.

[malfist]

I use Google because they're more open, but I agree with you, I am under no pretense that it's open. Just more open than the alternative, barely.

[kaba0]

Yay, capitalism working as intended. The rational buyer can choose to get kicked in the head or in the groin! Vote with your money!

That’s why even Adam Smith himself said that it only works in well-defined markets! It’s the job of governments to define these, and phones are so essential to our lives that they should be thought of as roads, instead of as an average private company.

[heavyset_go]

Apple and Google have a duopoly in the mobile OS markets and mobile app markets. The fig-leaf of choice is between two duopolists. That's not healthy competition or an actual choice.

[datavirtue]

Burn