[gvicino]

We are a planet of 8 billion people. Through what other supply model could we ensure the production of computers and technology for everyone (or even just for some) if not the market? Here I found an infographic that shows how the supply chain for the production of a PC works:

https://scmresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/supply_ch...

This also applies to science. The Covid pandemic is almost certainly a result of global warming caused by human activities, but the vaccine for Covid was found thanks to a shared effort of humanity, encouraged by both government policies and, above all, the profit of pharmaceutical companies.

I am well aware of all the flaws of capitalism, but I can't understand how we can have an "information age" without a market. We can try to reduce our impact, learn to decentralize, learn to fix things that break (all things I personally do), but I can't envision a decentralized technological and scientific world that wouldn't set us back 300 years.

[CapstanRoller]

>I can't envision a decentralized technological and scientific world that wouldn't set us back 300 years.

And yet you are here arguing for more capitalist market-based solutions, which are inherently decentralized and have a tendency to create unrelated, wasteful (duplication of effort), and often pointless competition and profit-seeking?

Very odd.

[gvicino]

Let's not mince words:

- The decentralization of markets (criticized by some, though I'm not among them) is often condemned because it can lead to elements of economic power centralization. Critics argue that it makes people dependent on tools and technologies controlled by a few, and driven by profit.

- The decentralization proposed in the technological field is closer to anarchist ideals and suggests a kind of decentralization implemented by individual people and groups on a voluntary and mutualistic basis.

I don't believe the latter can truly benefit humanity because I don't think we are that evolved. Individuals primarily seek their own personal gain and are often so uninformed as to not understand that this personal benefit is only achievable with the benefit of the community. I believe that the market (controlled and monitored by nations and supranational entities) functions better because it is an imperfect model that, by leveraging people's selfishness, compels them to collaborate and communicate with each other.

[CapstanRoller]

>The decentralization proposed in the technological field is closer to anarchist ideals

Anarchist ideals? From right-wing billionaires like Musk and Thiel? Or by centrist billionaires like...?

Because that's who is driving the technological field, ultimately — people who have more money than entire countries, to whom we are basically just bugs to be squashed if we bother them.

>I believe that the market (controlled and monitored by nations and supranational entities) functions better because it is an imperfect model that, by leveraging people's selfishness,

lmao

This doesn't feel like a serious discussion. I'm out.

[vinnyvichy]

Please reconsider..

gvicino has important points regarding the fine structure of collaboration regulation.. he says it's a "belief", which means it could still be open to discussion!

(Imagine, OTOH, if he started with "reason tells me.." :)

[CapstanRoller]

Anarchism isn't a belief, but rather a political-philosophical framework with some very specifically-defined foundational aspects.

Imagine discussing math and programming with someone who insists that pi=3 and GOTO is the best control flow mechanism.

[082349872349872]

pedantry:

a) A friend made their pile developing Atari 2600 cartridges. In those days, doing a pythagorean distance calculation would've been way too expensive (especially as they had to work in between scan lines), so in their programs hit regions were octagonal, which is not pi=3, but not far off from pi=6.

b) As someone who generates object code, GOTO is the best control flow mechanism in that domain. [see also "Lambda: the ultimate GOTO" (1977) https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/5753 ]

[vinnyvichy]

Your covid point reminds me of the Jonathan (oops forgot his last name) inventing rna tech on his yacht :)

And trying to create a market, also from his yacht, but alas also not very successful