[kayodelycaon]

ODD has some really questionable aspects. Especially considering half of children diagnosed with it are also ADHD. I highly suspect the issue is more with the authority figures not knowing how to handle neurodivergence than the children themselves.

Many people tend to do the opposite of what they are told to do. In an individualist culture, this is normal.

[lazide]

A step back - I’d consider the possibility too that it’s a learned behavior where they have received enough pain in the past doing what they were told, so literally have been conditioned to do the opposite of what they were told.

And/or, never got attention or positive feedback when doing what they were told - but got lots of attention when they did what they were told not to do. Not necessarily positive, but something is better than nothing.

Which isn’t necessarily at odds with what you’re saying.

[throwaway22032]

As someone who has some of the traits this is absolutely it.

When you spend your childhood being told by people to do things that will lead to, well, almost certainly being poor and having a shit life, you learn to just ignore advice and do the opposite.

It is really hard to unlearn this in adulthood. I tend to get by by judging the person giving the advice e.g. if they seem successful then they are more likely to be correct than if they are not.

[smeej]

I developed something like this, but it manifests more as "question everything until it makes sense to me."

I feel like I'm constitutionally incapable of taking anybody's word for anything, but it's vastly worse for anyone who reacts with hostility to my questions about points that don't make sense to me.

It was very much trained into me by my father that following the advice of those people leads to suffering and pain. He acted like he knew everything. He reacted with rage when questioned. And looking back on it, he was (and remains) wrong about every single point of substance I ever remember his having made.

[tbrownaw]

> manifests more as "question everything until it makes sense to me."

This is called "critical thinking" -- at least when combined with a decent amount of existing topical knowledge to be able to ask good questions -- and is rather useful for all sorts of things.

[lazide]

Sure, when it comes to say, public policy.

It hits a bit different when it’s about where to go for dinner. ;)

[smeej]

It's surprising and disappointing how rarely it goes over well. It's led me to believe most people deserve to feel "impostor syndrome."

One of my favorite feelings is the one I get when I have an opportunity to change my mind because someone has better information about a topic than I do and is willing to share it with me so I can come to the same conclusion they have, rather than the one I had because I was ignorant of certain information.

I always hope professionals, whom I expect to be experts in their subjects, enjoy their subject enough that they are better informed than I am about it, so I tend to ask a lot of questions. It is extremely rare that I find one who takes this well.

My mechanic is a glowing exception on this front. He actually specializes in my kind of car (old Priuses, not something fancy), and when he tells me X, Y, and/or Z are wrong with it and what he needs to do to fix it, if I ask questions, he can easily identify what knowledge I'm missing, and happily just explains it to me. As an intelligent, curious person, I love interacting with experts like this and will happily pay more to do so. And he seems to enjoy talking about his subject, even with someone who knows a lot less about it than he does.

But my doctors? Especially "specialists"? Absolutely opposite experience on every front. They loathe my questions, and treat me with contempt for daring to question their authority, even when I'm trying to ask about recent research papers and have previously read all their citations. I'm not a doctor, but I do know how to read papers, and especially for a chronic condition I have, I've read a lot. I'm not some random person coming in with a file of advice from "Doctor Google." If anything, I know quite a bit more about my condition than I do about my car, even though my history with each is about the same length.

I don't know if it has to do with the respective systems the two kinds of experts operate in or what (my mechanic's education was not as long or as arduous, and since he operates independently, it's up to him to decide how much time he wants to spend with me and what to charge me), but it's a disappointing world for an inquisitive critical thinker.

[lazide]

Are you me? If not, are you really sure?

[kayodelycaon]

I happen to agree. You can very easily train a child with a compatible personality or disability into an ODD diagnosis.