[_yb2s]

In what way has it been “dumbed down?” I use modern MacOS as a Unix software development workstation and it works great- nothing substantial has changed in 20 years other than better package managers. I suppose they did remove X11 but it’s trivial to install yourself.

[isametry]

Not GP, but usually when people talk about the "dumbing down" of macOS, they refer to new apps and GUI elements adopted from iOS.

macOS as an operating system has been "completed" for about 7 years. From that point, almost all additions to it have been either focused on interoperation with the iPhone (good), or porting of entire iPhone features directly to Mac (usually very bad).

Another point of view is that macOS is great, but all ideas that make it great come from 20 years ago, and have died at the company since then. If Apple were to build a desktop OS today, there's no way they would make it the best Unix-like system of all time.

[layer8]

> Another point of view is that macOS is great, but all ideas that make it great come from 20 years ago, and have died at the company since then.

This also applies to Windows, by the way (except it’s more like 20-30 years ago).

[jthoward64]

Whereas Linux never stopped coming up with new ideas, but doesn't have the manpower to implement them

[Animats]

systemd!

(Currently struggling with the way systemd inserts itself into the DNS query chain and then botches things.)

[ahartmetz]

The how-hard-can-it-be-and-who-cares-anyway approach to replacing basic system components. Love it.

[psd1]

It likes to fall over to the secondary server, doesn't it.

[Animats]

There are so many known systemd-resolved bugs [1][2] that I can't tell which one was breaking both of my simple Ubuntu desktop machines. Systemd-resolved sets itself up as the sole DNS resolver and then randomly reports it can't reach any DNS servers.

[1] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3A...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/18kh1r5/im_shocked_t...

[bornfreddy]

It likes to botch things.

[TylerE]

Which is why I gave up on it. Was tired of something in my workflow breaking every 6 weeks because “ooh shiny”

[kolanos]

> Another point of view is that macOS is great, but all ideas that make it great come from 20 years ago, and have died at the company since then. If Apple were to build a desktop OS today, there's no way they would make it the best Unix-like system of all time.

Many of those ideas came from NeXT, so more like 30 years ago.

[_yb2s]

I don't see how any of that is an issue... basically you can now run iOS software which is great, and there are some interface and design elements from iOS- which frankly has a great interface, and they're improvements I like.

I agree there is some conceptual inconsistency- which I see on almost all OSs nowadays, but Windows 8 being the most egregious example, where you are mixing smartphone and traditional desktop interface elements in a confusing way.

[wizardforhire]

Yeah thats fair and I concur, but gp is right.

However and unfortunately I feel your last statement is spot tf on! Our only hope I guess is that they have incurred enough tech debt to be unable to enshitify themselves.

For those not in the know apple is an og hacker company, their first product was literally a blue box! Why this matters and gp is correct and why linux peeps gets in a tivvy and what stephenson was getting at with the batmobile analogy is that traditionally if hackers built something consumer facing they couldn’t help themselves but to bake in the easter eggs.

[jhbadger]

With each new version it has become increasingly hostile to installing new software, particularly open-source software that hasn't been "signed" by a commercial developer, throwing up huge warning windows suggesting that anyone daring to run such stuff is taking a huge risk. And many of the standard UNIX locations have become locked down making it impossible to install stuff there. It's clear that Apple would like to see a world where everything is installed on a Mac via their App Store and everyone writing Mac software are official paid developers as with their phones.

[krrrh]

I don’t understand this sort of comment. The warning windows aren’t “huge”. In practice is clicking through the dialog any more cumbersome than typing sudo and entering your password? In reality is the dialog any less appropriate for the average Linux desktop user?

Is locking down the System folder any more problematic than app armor, and any less useful for system integrity? Putting everything from brew under /opt follows UNIX conventions perfectly fine, definitely more than using snaps in Ubuntu for basic command line utilities. And installing whatever you want on macOS is just as easy as it is on Ubuntu.

This sort of complaint just gets so boring and detached from reality, and I’m not saying that you don’t use macOS but it reads like something from someone who couldn’t possibly be using it day-to-day. For me it’s a great compromise in terms of creating an operating system where I can do anything that I would do in Linux with just as much ease if not more, but also not have to provide tech support on for my elderly parents.

[jhbadger]

I wouldn't mind in the least if it was a matter of using sudo. That's a logical elevation of privileges. MacOS already does this at points, asking you for your password (which if you are an administrator is basically running sudo for you). These warning messages and locking down the /usr hierarchy (even with sudo) are different as they aren't asking for more access but merely to spread FUD about open access software (yes, you can use brew if the program you want is in it, but that is just adding another garden even if less walled, and it works because someone in the Homebrew project is signing the binaries).

I have used UNIX/Linux on a daily basis for over 30 years, and OSX/MacOS daily for over 15 years. I know how UNIX systems work and where things traditionally are located. And until a few years ago MacOS was a reasonable UNIX that could be used more or less like a friendly UNIX system -- but it is becoming increasingly less so.

[fragmede]

having to go into the terminal to run chattr in order to remove the quarantine bit is a lot to ask of a non technical user.

[seec]

You are switching the goalpost. Not only are there some "security" features that you can't disable and are of dubious actual usefulness like the system partition but they make it much harder to actually hack around the system and modify stuff as you see fit. It has also complexified the installation use of a range of software that is more annoying than it should be.

The openness and freedom to modify like an open UNIX was a major selling point, losing all that for "security" features that mostly appeal to the corporate are not great. Those features also need to be proven useful because as far as I'm concerned, it's all theory, in practice I think they are irrelevant.

The notification system is as annoying and dumb as in iOS and the nonstop "security" notification and password prompt is just a way to sell you on the biometrics usefulness; which Apple, like big morons they are, didn't implement in a FaceID way, in the place where it made the most sense to begin with: laptops/desktops. Oh, but they have a "nice", totally not useless notch.

Many of the modern Apps are ports of their iOS version, wich makes them feel almost as bad as webapps (worse if we are talking about webapps on windows) and they are in general lacking in many ways both from a feature and UI standpoint.

Apple Music is a joke of a replacement for iTunes, and I could go on and on.

The core of the system may not have changed that much (well expect your data is less and less accessible, forcibly stored in their crappy obscure iCloud folder/dbs with rarely decent exports functions) but as the article hinted very well, you don't really buy an OS, just like nobody is really buying solely an engine. A great engine is cool and all, but you need a good car around that to make it valuable and this is exactly the same for an OS. It used to be that macOS was a good engine with a great car around, in the form of free native apps that shipped with it or 3rd party ones. Nowadays unless you really need the benefits of design/video apps very optimized for Apple platforms it increasingly is not a great car.

Apps around the system aren't too bad but they are very meh, especially for the price you pay for the privilege (and the obsolescence problem already mentioned above).

It's not really that macOS has regressed a lot (although it has in some in the iOSification process) but also that it didn't improve a whole lot meanwhile price and other penalty factors increased a lot.

But I doubt you can see the light, you probably are too far in your faith.

[_yb2s]

These are great features IMO, as a unix savvy 'power user.'

A system should be heavily locked down and secure by default unless you really know what you are doing and choose to manually override that.

Modern MacOS features add an incredible level of security- it won't run non-signed apps unless you know what you're doing and override it. Even signed apps can only access parts of the filesystem you approve them to. These things are not a hassle to override, and basically make it impossible for hostile software to do things that you don't want it to.

[jlarocco]

I stopped using it a few years ago, but IMO it was definitely being dumbed down and not respecting users any more. Things like upgrades reseting settings that I went out of the way to change - Apple has a "we know better than you" attitude that's frustrating to work around.

[tengwar2]

Which settings? I am a long term MacOS (and Linux) user and have not noticed such problems.

[jlarocco]

The "Allow Apps from Anywhere" setting, amongst others.

Linux works better for me, anyway.

[bear141]

Just using at a barely advanced level for 20 years or so as I do, the other comment was correct in that it is the changes that have seemingly been made to make it more familiar to iOS users and “idiot proof”.

Mainly slowly hiding buttons and options and menus that used to be easily accessible, now require holding function or re-enabling in settings or using terminal to bring them back.

[groby_b]

Off the top of my head:

- The settings app is now positively atrocious, "because iPhone"

- SIP is an absolute pox to deal with.

- "Which version of Python will we invoke today" has become a fabulous game with multiple package managers in the running

- AppCompat games.

- Continued neglect for iTunes (which is now a TV player with a "if we must also provide music, fine" segment added - but it still thinks it should be a default client for audio files)

- iCloud wedging itself in wherever it can

Yes, all of those can be overcome. That's because the bones are still good, but anything that Apple has hung off those since Tim Cook is at best value neutral, and usually adds a little bit more drag for every new thing.

Don't get me wrong, I still use it - because it's still decent enough - but there's definitely a trajectory happening.

[tengwar2]

Settings - I preferred the rectilinear layout, but I don't see why making it linear makes it atrocious.

If you don't want SIP, it will take you a few minutes to reboot and switch it off permanently (or perhaps until the next OS upgrade). This is really the only one in the list which has to be "overcome", and personally I think that SIP enabled by default is the right choice. Anyone who needs SIP disabled can work out how to do that quickly - but it is years since I've had a reason to do it even temporarily, so I suspect the audience for this is small.

Multiple package managers and Python: that sounds like a problem caused by running multiple third party package managers.

If you want games, x86 or console is the preferred choice. Issue for some, decidely not for others. I'd much rather have the Mx processor than better games support.

iTunes - I can't comment, I don't use it.

iCloud - perfectly possible to run without any use of iCloud, and I did for many years. I use it for sync for couple of third party apps, and it's nice to have that as an available platform. It doesn't force its way in, and the apps that I use usually support other platforms as well.

[fake-name]

OS X started going down hill as soon as they replaces spaces and expose with mission control.

[SllX]

Consolidating Spaces and Exposé is not one of the things they did that hurt Mac OS X.

[fake-name]

I could not disagree more strongly.

Having them separate, and more importantly taking spaces from a 2d array of desktops to a 1d array of desktops ruined it substantially.