[bheadmaster]

> Honestly, I don't. First, perhaps it's small minded but I don't really feel responsible for every human on the planet, or even a significant percentage.

A government that governs a nation is arguably responsible for every human in it.

[_heimdall]

This is the core of so many problems in western governments today. Governments should be there to coordinate complex problems that society doesn't have a better way to handle. Governments should not be there to be a responsible parent to everyone, whether they want it or not.

[Jochim]

What do you think happens to the wealthy when the government does not ensure the majority of people are well fed and secure?

Does the mob respect property rights?

[_heimdall]

Sorry, I'm not quite sure how that ties in. What's your point here with regards to a UBI and whether a government should work for or be parent to its constituents?

[bheadmaster]

Citizens have to obey their country's laws (restriction of freedom) in exchange for government taking care of essential human needs like housing, clean water, electricity, food, and so on (obligation of the government).

If a citizen cannot get access to those needs (and remember - 5% unemployment is optimal), then why would anyone expect them to keep following their country' laws, and not steal and murder?

[_heimdall]

You seem to be assuming that we first have to have countries, laws, and governments. That seems like an obvious assumptuon today, but that isn't an absolute fundamental of life.

People don't need the heavy hand of governments and laws to stop them from stealing and murdering, as if that is the base state for all humans. If there were no laws, would you move right on to both of those acts?

[bheadmaster]

> People don't need the heavy hand of governments and laws to stop them from stealing and murdering, as if that is the base state for all humans. If there were no laws, would you move right on to both of those acts?

In absence of police-like force enforcing rules, crime happens often, so people naturally create police-like forces like neighbourhood watches to prevent crime.

Countries, laws and governments aren't un-natural - they're just more complex and powerful versions of institutions that naturally appear in any organized group of people.

If you were in a tribe whose hunters were hoarding meat for their fat sons, would you starve to death to avoid stealing because stealing is wrong?

[blfr]

Not even remotely so in practice. Adults are largely responsible for themselves and their kids/elders. Sure, with some government assistance but true state wards are fairly rare and the system would have no chance of working if they weren't.

[bheadmaster]

> true state wards are fairly rare and the system would have no chance of working if they weren't

How so? Wouldn't that, at the very least, solve homelessness?