[keiferski]

I don’t think anyone believes Poland would be a global superpower. But a half millennium ago it was the largest state in Europe by area. Since then, the country has been attacked and dismembered more than pretty much any other European state, including Germany, Russia, and France.

It’s not a stretch to think that Poland would be on equal terms with Spain or Italy had these things not occurred. But of course then you have to dig into the history of colonialism, of which Poland was a colonized state and not a colonizing one, and places like the UK, France, or Germany don’t like considering the fact that abundant resources from colonies might have played a role in their industrialization.

[qwytw]

> But a half millennium ago it was the largest state in Europe by area. Since then, the country has been attacked and dismembered more than pretty much

To be fair the country become entirely dysfunctional (mainly due to internal reasons) long before it was dismembered. By the 1700s while technically retaining most of its territory it basically became just a "playground" for Russia, Swedish and German armies to fight each other in... and the country's elite had very little interest or desire to prevent that (or rather it was a very low priority for them and their weren't willing to sacrifice their economic and political status for it).

> Italy

I'm not sure Italy had many advantages in that regard. It was already dismembered to begin with and for several hundreds of years it was just a prize for major European powers to fight over (in many ways it was in even worse position than Poland). On the other hand even at its peak Poland was extremely economically and socially underdeveloped compared to most of Italy which seems like a much bigger reason.

> Germany > resources from colonies might have played a role in their industrialization.

I'm not sure that's true in this case. Yes Germans were doing a lot of "colonizing" in Eastern Europe but I'm not sure German states in Germany "proper" necessarily benefited that much from it. And to be fair historically Poland only has itself to "blame" for being outmatched by a minor state like Prussia which began as a Polish vassal but somehow managed to turn itself into a global(ish) superpower over a few centuries.

[keiferski]

I’m not super interested in arguing about the finer details. The point remains that Poland was colonized, destroyed, and occupied from roughly the late 19th century until the 1990s, and so anyone blaming the lack of development there on occupying forces is in a large sense correct. The fact that Poland today, unoccupied, is rapidly approaching the development level of leading EU countries further emphasizes the point.

[qwytw]

> rapidly approaching the development level of leading EU countries further emphasizes the point.

Well same applies to pretty much all of Central/Eastern Europe, and my point is that events prior to the 1900s didn't necessarily have a huge impact on the current situation (look at Finland). It's not like the Russian Empire in the 1800s was particularly more oppressive towards the overwhelming majority of the population or mismanaged the country to higher degree than the Polish nobility that preceded them (of course only in relative terms).

Napoleon winning/not losing as bad might have changed significantly everything but Poland's problems in the 1600s and the 1700s were primarily caused by internal issues.

Being independent alone is often not enough (e.g Portugal/Spain were left completely behind the rest of Western Europe economically and even socially until the mid to late 20th century).

[keiferski]

It's not like the Russian Empire in the 1800s was particularly more oppressive towards the overwhelming majority of the population or mismanaged the country to higher degree than the Polish nobility that preceded them

The Russian Empire literally tried to eradicate the Polish language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#Lithuania_and_Po...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Polish_sentiment#Before_t...

You're also not mentioning the fact that the mismangement of the 19th century was in large part due to foreign actors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto#Zenith

You don't seem to know much of what you're talking about, so like I said, I'm not interested in having this conversation.

[qwytw]

> You're also not mentioning the fact that the mismanagement of the 19th century was in large part due to foreign actors.

Well, yes.. Since Poland/Lithuania wasn't an independent state anymore and Poland lost most of its autonomy after the uprising in 1830 and 63 I would agree it was not only in large part but almost entirely due to foreign actors.

> The Russian Empire literally tried to eradicate the Polish language.

As I said, in relative terms. The Russian Empire was of course highly oppressive and put in a lot of effort suppressing the local Polish landholders/nobility because they were the biggest political threat. Peasants (i.e. the overwhelming majority of the population) were one of the main beneficiaries of this, getting to buyout their land at a significant discount if not outright for free.

By the 1900s in Congress Poland over 60% of land was owned by peasants and small landholders, I find it hard to believe that would have happened without foreign intervention so it's not like it was entirely black and white.

> You don't seem to know much of what you're talking about

Not sure about that, you do seem to lack nuance to a rather severe degree, though