[koonsolo]

That's why it's illegal, no? If it was up to me, smoking would also be phased out.

Edit: What bothers me most on these HN discussions is how casual some commenters act of taking drugs. Like it's somehow great. Let's not act as if taking drugs is normal or something everyone should try.

[alan-hn]

Using psychoactive drugs is incredibly normal and has been practiced for thousands of years by humans. In fact it is one of the most human things you can do because many other species don't exhibit this behavior. We should be working in the interest of reducing stigma of drug use to reduce harms associated with it. Drugs are illegal because politicians wanted a way to crack down on communities that didn't agree with their policies, it is simply a form of control. Have you never asked why alcohol is legal and cannabis or LSD are illegal? Fear and control.

[tsol]

This is true of opium. They used to give it to babies. This was because they didn't have safer drugs like we do today

[alan-hn]

Are you arguing that adults should not be able to choose what they ingest because some people used to give opium to babies at one point?

[koonsolo]

Just because something is done for hundreds of years doesn't mean we want to live in such society.

I'm from Europe, so your theory to control certain communities sounds very much as a conspiracy theory to me.

[alan-hn]

The US forced their system of controlling psychoactive substances on the rest of the world through treaties primarily. Perhaps you should learn about the history of drug use and control.

You also didn't answer my question about alcohol. Why is it legal and not cannabis?

[koonsolo]

Because alcohol is more interwoven into our society than cannabis.

If I had a magic wand and had to pick 1 legal one, I would go for cannabis. I think it has less negative effect on society than alcohol. But here we are, and my standpoint is to no approve new drugs and try to phase out the current ones.

I like my beer, wine and tequila, but I also see youth doesn't flock to it as much as my and previous generations. If properly done, it can be phased out.

[soulofmischief]

> I like my beer, wine and tequila

Then your argument is moot, as you engage in drug use. Just because it's a liquid in a glass bottle doesn't mean it isn't a drug.

Furthermore, the simple fact is that not everyone agrees with your take on personal freedom.

You have quite a lot of work ahead of you to prove that an adult from consuming a substance in their own home should be arrested and fined/jailed under threat of State violence.

This argument is so hard to make, that Harry Anslinger and William Randolph Hearst, two of the leading forces behind the criminalization of cannabis in the US a century ago, opted instead to rest their argument atop racism, political fearmongering and subterfuge (calling it marijuana instead of cannabis).

https://www.chieftain.com/story/news/2010/03/22/marijuana-s-...

I, for one, am glad that you don't have a magic wand to wave around and create law without due legislative process. That sounds like an incredibly autocratic method of governance. It would be good to consider that yours isn't the only valid opinion on this matter, and to reflect upon the arguments others are making.

[alan-hn]

Whose society? Western society? What about Mexican society? South america? The native Americans used psychedelic cactus and mushrooms. You seem to be drawing relatively arbitrary lines based on your own biased upbringing

And we don't have to choose only one, that's arbitrary too. We can easily dismantle the current prohibitory system to allow for a system of regulated production and access which would improve safety and reduce overdose deaths. Most overdoses happen because of the nature of the black market. There is no regulation or testing so substances, particularly opioids, can get cut to unknown potencies depending on the person handling it. This makes it a gamble every time a person were to use rather than consuming a measured amount of a pure substance. Prohibition objectively increases harm to individuals, society, and the economy.

[koonsolo]

You claim overdosis happpen because of "bad product"?

Prevention needs to be the main driver to prevent addicts.

Edit: And it's pretty absurd to believe functioning societies are built on drug addicts.

[Jerrrry]

Those coffee aficionados are particularly annoying yes

[gota]

Not a recreational drug user - but

> normal

By most definitions of the term, yeah, using drugs is "normal", and ancient practice. Strict persecution seems to me to be a recent invention

> everyone should try

Absolutely: not everyone should try all recreational drugs. As radical as saying that no one should try any recreational drug, right?

The discussion here is about meeting in a healthy middle and you seemed to have taken the latter position, which you must agree is radical and out of the question

[freeopinion]

It is extremely difficult to agree on a healthy middle. If you look at something I think most people consider much safer, we see how hard it is. What is a safe level of high fructose corn syrup that should be allowed as an ingredient of hamburger buns?

At some level, everything we put into our bodies has consequences, but it seems terrifying to me to have discussions about a healthy middle ground of how much meth is ok in a serving of mozzarella. Then again, I have no idea if the fancy chemical names currently listed as ingredients on the labels of food I eat are preservatves or what, and what their actual consequences are to my health.

[unaindz]

Nobody is talking about adding recreational drugs to food.

Corn syrup, as bad as it may be to consume in great quantities with a modern lifestyle, is food with calories even if it may lack other more healthy nutrients. Should be banned? I don't think so. But regulated so companies don't abuse it as a cheap ingredient.

For how legal recreational drugs would work just look at nicotine regulation.

[koonsolo]

I don't want to live in a society with drug addicts everywhere. If you do, maybe move to the bad parts of San Francisco.

[sideshowb]

Why phase out smoking? I thought you just said having your parents tell you not to smoke worked just fine.

[koonsolo]

For my family it works out fine.

And it already improved since I was young. People would smoke in cafees and parties. The non-smokers just had to live with all the crap. I'm happy my kids can go out now without the terrible smell in their hair, clothes and passive smoke in their lungs. It's getting prohibitted in more and more places, so I'm on the winning side :D.

[vladvasiliu]

I don't really have a horse in this race, but it seems to me that making something illegal doesn't always work as expected and stop people from consuming it. See: prohibition in the US.

So, if the actual goal is harm-reduction for the population at large (and not for what seems to be a small sample who wouldn't care either way since they're not into that), maybe instead of outlawing substances, we should make sure that people don't take random crap that will mess them up even worse than what they were originally looking for. Because it seems that people will continue taking drugs.

So maybe, as a society, we should finally accept reality instead of insisting that wishful thinking will somehow work after it has failed miserably for ages.

[koonsolo]

I think it starts with educating youth, with proper campaigns. Make it clear living as an addict is not something you want.

The legal aspect is a very difficult discussion, and it's more based on opinions than facts.

But at start we need to decide if we want these drugs in our society or not. And I'm always surprised at how the HN crowd is: taking drugs are awesome, we want it in our society.

[vladvasiliu]

I think the HN stance is a bit more nuanced: it may depend on the drug. It's pretty clear that not all drugs have the same health risks and addiction potential, so I'm not surprised people don't treat them all the same way.

As an easy example: I don't consider myself an alcoholic and even hate being drunk, yet I would be bummed to never be able to have a drink again.

> I think it starts with educating youth, with proper campaigns. Make it clear living as an addict is not something you want.

Indeed. But I'm not convinced that banning the substances in addition to this education is actually useful.

> But at start we need to decide if we want these drugs in our society or not.

That's a good question. But, like it or not, these drugs are in our society today. I don't see any practical means of getting rid of them. Outlawing them clearly not only doesn't work, but actually has some pretty terrible side-effects of its own: health-related (via adulterants) as well as social (drug-related gang crime).

[koonsolo]

I'm the same with alcohol. But I've also seen the worst in families where one is an alcoholic, and then you start wondering if it's all worth it.

After the discussion here, I wonder if there would be some middle ground. Make it legal to buy, but very controlled and individual. That way people who want to stop might get the help they need. Or the strict control would be able to prevent excesses. It's for sure a very complex problem, with lots of different opinions.