[bluepizza]

> People need to realize that code is a liability

This is an extreme point of view, that is tightly connected to the MBA-driven min-maxing of everything under the sun.

I am glad that there are folks who aren't afraid to code new systems and champion new ideas. Even in the corporate sense, mediocre risk averse solutions will only take you so far. The most profitable companies tend to be quite daring in their tech.

Code is not a liability. Code is what makes a company move its gears.

[delecti]

Code being a liability is not a contradiction with code being what makes a company move its gears. The trucks of a delivery service are a liability (requiring maintenance, deprecation accounting, fuel), but are also the only thing that lets the company deliver. A delivery company should own as few trucks as necessary, and no fewer. Any company should publish/run/maintain as little code as necessary, and no less.

[bhawks]

Trucks are literally an asset - you can't do depreciation on a liability.

The only way a 'truck' could be a liability is a lease for said truck.

There are plenty of economically rationale reasons why a company may own more trucks they strictly need to manage delivery. For example wanting to handle seasonal bursts, wanting to ensure reliability, preparing for an expansion, being able to lease capacity to other businesses.

Actually you can go replace truck with server and you describe what made AWS make initial sense.

Please stop misusing accounting concepts.

[cbsmith]

> Please stop misusing accounting concepts.

Assets can also be liabilities. The mortgages in a mortgage backed security is both an asset and a liability, as was only too well demonstrated in 2008... It's an asset in the security portfolio, but until you sell the security, it's a liability for whomever is securitizing it.

[bhawks]

In the GFC the government literally created the Troubled _Asset_ Relief Program. Those MBSs were assets and didn't magically become liabilities.

The problem was the market value of those assets plummeted because no one expected them to generate the agreed upon cash flows because the underlying loans were going into correlated defaults. Despite all this the only party that saw the mortgage as a liability is the individual who's responsibility it was to make a monthly payment on said mortgage.

Outside of swaps and other derivatives financial instruments and other properties don't magically switch from being an asset to being a liability based on random external factors.

This conversation is like accountants talking about processes, threads, fibers and context switching... very imprecisely.

[cbsmith]

> Outside of swaps and other derivatives financial instruments and other properties don't magically switch from being an asset to being a liability based on random external factors.

I wasn't saying they switch; I'm saying they can be both an asset and a liability. Liability isn't strictly an accounting term. It also can refer to something that acts as a disadvantage. Illiquid assets whose valuation can be volatile can be a liability.

[delecti]

I'm not using liability in the accounting context, but in the colloquial one.

> a person or thing whose presence or behavior is likely to cause embarrassment or put one at a disadvantage.

Code is absolutely a liability. Code deteriorates as conditions change, and unchanged code also becomes more vulnerable in a way that conventional objects can't.

[patmorgan23]

A truck also comes with a maintenance liability if you want to continue getting value out of it, just like code.

[bhawks]

Liabilities are obligations of a company to pay money owed to a lender as a result of a previous transaction.

You are describing an operating expense which has an entirely different nature than a liability.

'comes with a maintenance liability' is a handwaving statement that means practically nothing without a ton of contextual information. A true liability has a contractual set of obligations to pay defined amounts on a agreed upon schedule. No one is going to come after you for not changing the oil on your truck, try missing payments on a lease.

[fragmede]

> No one is going to come after you for not changing the oil on your truck

Several parties will come after you for not changing the oil on your semi-truck that is being used professionally for freight, starting with your driver, your insurance company, and the US Department of Transportation (DOT), specifically the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA), with whom you have m have to provide maintenance records. Trucking is a highly regulated industry, and after Crowdstrike, software engineering is only going to get more regulated, not less.

[slt2021]

For trucking company owning and developing trucks makes sense.

But does it make sense for a trucking(streaming) company to create own plumbing equipment? I’d rather use Plumbers Supply Inc that every other company uses from Plumber Depot or use open-source-plumbers.com, because I am not in a plumbing business

[bhawks]

The margin on trucking could be so much higher than plumbing that most plumbers could never afford the R&D necessary to advance flushing tech. Big truck operates at a scale where they materially benefit from better flushing, so they take their truck dollars and pour them into their own plumbing lab. Big truck sees this as a competitive advantage that no one else is positioned in the market to unlock. They may one day enter the general plumbing space and disrupt waste management, at their option not obligation of course.

This describes Google and Amazon perfectly - while you can armchair quarterback their biz decisions they are definitely doing well for themselves.

[slt2021]

Amazon actually steals a lot of open source and repackages it as a “managed AWS service”, they literally deployed managed Airflow as soon as it became popular.

The whole aws reinvent is repackaged whatever open source project is trending, hiding control plane from the user and instead expose it via AWS control plane and charge people per usage instead of per server

[narism]

Can you steal something that is given away freely? People are buying those services so they must be providing some value.

[slt2021]

I was just replying to the comment above that amazon somehow rolls their own stuff and gives back to the community by open sourcing their systems.

Amazon’s approach is the opposite: steal open source repo and make $$$ off of open source contributors’ labor

[bhawks]

I can't find a single line in the Apache software license that would indicate that Amazon is breaking any agreements set forth for Airflow.

[bushbaba]

Accept they also provide the security, billing/invoicing, IaaC, support, provisioning, scaling, list goes on.

As for pay per server vs pay per usage. Heck you know Amazon actually bills the team who caused the cost. And gives finance a report on how much each team is spending and on what. Good luck doing that on prem.

[slt2021]

The question is how much do they give back to the open source community, after making boatloads of $$$ off of opensource contributions and whether their model is sustainable and healthy for the FOSS movement

[bilalq]

But thinking of those trucks primarily as a liability is exactly the kind of mindset that leads to companies minimizing their liabilities instead of maximizing their potential.

[shermantanktop]

Especially when the cost of minimizing (long hours, unsafe conditions) is not felt by decision makers, and may not materialize for a while, but the benefits of maximizing their potential is felt directly and immediately.

Incentives are everything. That's why managers are so careful when applying them to their own jobs.

[pants2]

Using open-source is a liability too, with added problems of code licensing conflicts, supply chain attacks, zero-day vulnerabilities, relying on maintainers that don’t work for you, etc.

[cbsmith]

Not open source is a liability too, with added problems of code licensing conflicts, supply chain attacks, zero-day vulnerabilities, relying on maintainers that don't work for you, etc... ;-)