[madamelic]

I can't tell if the author is being funny / hyperbolic or has never looked at levels.fyi.

Google pays basically the same salary as a series A startup would (ie: $150 - $180k / yr). Yes, you'll get your salary again in stock but you aren't necessarily getting left behind by choosing to punch lottery tickets because you enjoy it.

People need to, and I need to say this to myself too, smell the roses occasionally. You are paid an absurdly comfortable salary to basically solve puzzles all day. The meetings and people can suck occasionally but I can't imagine a much better life if I have to work for a living.

[rescripting]

The only thing I can think of is the author is calculating these numbers as if employees never sell the stock they are granted until retirement.

If you work for 10-15 years at a tech giant, bank your $150k in RSUs per year and then sell them all at retirement then maybe the numbers add up, if you're extraordinarily lucky.

[janalsncm]

$150k seems high but in reality it’s barely keeping up with the cost of life expenses.

In 1950 a house cost $7300. Average salary was $3000. So you could make 41% of a house in a year. You would be taxed at 17%.

In 2024 the median house price is $420k. So someone making $150k only makes 36% of a house in a year. You will be taxed at 19%.

[Panzer04]

Because houses are the benchmark for all costs? No need to reinvent the wheel, inflation stats exist for a reason.

Inflation-adjusted, 3k in 1950 is ~40k today, so 150k leaves you much better off in general.

Also, 150 is definitely high (though not crazy or anything). It's more than twice the average US wage.

[janalsncm]

Inflation stats are just measuring the prices of a set of goods without regard to whether you need them or how much you need them. If inflation stats say you can buy 2x the number of cheeseburgers today that doesn’t mean you will.

I specifically mention housing because it is one of the main things (aside from education and healthcare) that our neoliberal economic system has not been able to import, and which have skyrocketed in cost since the 70s. And everyone needs housing.

[Panzer04]

You're incorrect. Inflation numbers do account for substitution effects (ie. People buying a cheaper replacement good). Something no one buys that goes up in price 100x has no substantial effect on inflation, while food that everyone buys going up 10% goes straight into it. Depends on the agency doing the stats and calculations, but it's probably in the ballpark.

Adjusted, people have more purchasing power today, even if they are spending relatively more on housing.

High house prices suck, and definitely are a big problem, arguably self-bflicted in most places by increasingly onerous regulations (zoning, building quality, minimum sizes, and so on). Certainly there are some benefits to that, but all comes at the cost of increased house prices.

The other thing is labour has become relatively very expensive compared to most goods today, and houses embed a huge labour cost component - so their price (along with other labour-intensive sectors like, well, education and healthcare), have gone up much more than eg. Food, which can be produced largely with capital investment (tractors and so on)

[badpun]

Let's compare apples to apples. What's the median price of a house at the 1950s standard of living (sqft, amenities)?

[janalsncm]

Unless you are suggesting that Americans’ standard of living should not rise for the last 75 years (despite productivity increases), that would only be relevant if buying houses at 1950s standards was possible for most people.

[badpun]

People don't want to live like their grandparents did in the 50s, so the market mostly doesn't offer it. So, instead of working much less and buying a 1950s-liike house, people prefer to work the same amount as their grandparents worked, and afford a fancy 2024 house.

[morgante]

He's looked at levels.fyi.

He even links to it from his resume.

His problem is that he thinks L10 is the benchmark to compare against, when the vast, vast majority of engineers (including many with decades of experience) would never make it to L10.

[gloryjulio]

The benchmark should be l4-l5. Even l6 is rare. His benchmark is ridiculous

[moandcompany]

L10 is generally the Vice President level at a company like Google or Facebook.

The vast majority of engineers will never make it to L10.

[MarkSweep]

I think L8 is equivalent to vice president. L10 is labeled as "Google Fellow" on levels.fyi. There is a Wikipedia category for Google Fellows and it has 9 people listed. I'd be surprised if this count was off by more than an order of magnitude or two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Google_Fellows

[moandcompany]

L8 and L9 are Director/Senior Director positions. In the software engineering family of career ladders, it is part of the Engineering Manager career ladder, which generally starts at L6, with occasional L5 managers (L5 SWE individual contributors transitioning to manager track).

The technical/individual contributor track also has L8 and L9 Director/Senior Director levels. Sometimes it's referred to as a "Principal" level in Product Areas like Cloud, but there are far fewer L8+ people on individual contributor career ladders (i.e. tracks) than on management ladders.

L8 is considered the start of Google's "executive levels," where individuals at this level and above are privy to executive-level training, perks, etc.

Google Fellows are generally L10 (i.e. Vice President equivalent level), if I recall correctly. Jeff Dean would be a canonical example of a Vice President equivalent level, however Jeff Dean also ended up being a manager/organizational head of the Research Product Area for several years as a Fellow. Vint Cerf may be another useful example of a Fellow / Vice President equivalent.

(My statements here are from having personally done statistical analysis of career ladders and levels at Google and Alphabet as a whole)

[wepple]

Fellow and VP are not the same track.

L8 is director level. So L10 might be both fellow and VP, given that Senior Director exists so is probably L9

[ryandrake]

HN commenters do this all the time, though. They'll take, say, an "L6 Google + Bay Area + Top End + Most Favorable Stock Market" compensation number, and then say "Most tech employees make this much."

[morgante]

Still, L10 is patently ridiculous. He is not L10.

[lesuorac]

What number is that?

Because like L3 is 200k so I'm not sure if you're seeing people post 600k as a reference point or 200k.

[mcguire]

Annual mean wage for Software Developers, 2023, according to the BLS:

                     Metropolitan areas with the highest employment level in Software Developers
    Metropolitan area                  Employment  Employment     Location   Hourly    Annual
                                                   per 1000 jobs  quotient   mean wage mean wage
    New York-Newark-Jersey City,...    119,010     12.53          1.15       $ 73.12   $ 152,100
    San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA  96,590     84.60          7.75       $ 96.06   $ 199,800
    San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA   83,920     34.65          3.18       $ 87.13   $ 181,220

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm

[ryandrake]

The numbers HNers claim to be "usual compensations" change every year, but they are almost always what would be a top compensation for a top employee at a top faang in a top cost-of-labor locale in a rapidly rising bull market.

[forrestthewoods]

> Google pays basically the same salary as a series A startup would (ie: $150 - $180k / yr)

Entry level. But with ~5 years experience and two promos you’ll be pushing $400k.

If you joined Google 5 years ago then you had at least one annual stock grant double in value.

If you work at FANG for 10 years you should be able to hit retirement money. If nothing else you’ll have invested 600k into your 401k which should be enough for CoastFire. IE it’s all the money you’ll need at retirement age.

[madamelic]

I've always heard the L5 ($210k on levels.fyi) is generally the highest the vast majority of people will ever get.

Is that incorrect? I know I've just heard that promo boards are really difficult to get to Senior and anything above that basically requires a miracle / someone far above gunning you.

EDIT: See above. I already addressed the fact TC is much higher. I am only talking about cash comp.

> Yes, you'll get your salary again in stock but you aren't necessarily getting left behind by choosing to punch lottery tickets because you enjoy it.

[moandcompany]

The typical software engineering employee at a company like Google will be L4 or L5. Staff-level (L6) and higher is a relatively small percentage of employees.

The base salary and bonus component will be in the ballpark of $200k/yr USD (base salary * 15% of base salary). Annual RSUs will often be $100k/yr.

[nerdponx]

> Yes, you'll get your salary again in stock but you aren't necessarily getting left behind by choosing to punch lottery tickets because you enjoy it.

But you are. $100k in liquid stock is worth about $100k. Startup options are expensive lottery tickets. One is worth substantially more than the other. Therefore one amounts to substantially greater compensation than the other.

[forrestthewoods]

> I am only talking about cash comp.

You're talking about it wrong. RSUs are functionally equivalent to cash, and taxed as such. You can't talk about only cash comp. If one person is making startup $200k cash + lottery ticket and another person is making $200k cash + $200k RSU then yes the startup person will get left behind if their lottery tickets never hit.

> heard that promo boards are really difficult to get to Senior and anything above that basically requires a miracle / someone far above gunning you.

Nah. I don't know Google's exact ratios. But I would estimate that ~10% of their SWEs are L6 and 3-5% are L7+. I think pretty much anyone can hit L6 if that's a goal. The percentage of SWEs that have 15+ years experience and are L6+ should be relatively high. The bulk of the workforce is quite young. Varies by company and I haven't worked at Google but I have worked at FAANG. They're all pretty similar afaict.

[loeg]

> I don't know Google's exact ratios. But I would estimate that ~10% of their SWEs are L6 and 3-5% are L7+.

It's similar at Facebook. Something like 10% are L6+ (mostly L6 and very few L7+).

[brotchie]

From direct first-hand experience the numbers for SWEs on levels.fyi for Google are accurate.

You almost always get your full bonus (or more) and (depending on the size of our RSU grants) you vest either quarterly or monthly and can usually sell immediately (barring an imminent earnings release).

So for all practical purposes (at FAANG at least) the total comp is cash equivalent (even though it's a combo of base + bonus + RSU).

[morgante]

L5 is correct, but you should be looking at total comp (not just base).

L5 at Google is $372k which is enough to get to CoastFIRE after a decade.

[loeg]

L5 is correct but total comp is a lot higher than $210k.

[kristjansson]

> If nothing else you’ll have invested 600k into your 401k

10 * ~20k (individual max contribution, rough avg.) * 1.5 (1:0.5 match) = ~300k?

[forrestthewoods]

FANG 401k plans all support the Mega Backdoor Roth IRA. Which every single elgible employee should be maxing out.

The pre-tax 401k limit is ~$23,000. But you can put in another ~$46,000 post-tax. (Limits go up a little each year). High end 401k plans allow this post-tax contribution to be instantly auto-converted into a Roth IRA that grows tax free.

It's maybe a little hard to max out at L3. But every L4+ SWE should be maxing it out. Do this for 10 years and you'll actually have tucked away $700,000 plus growth. Assuming you're a couple of decades away from retirement this will compound and grow into millions of dollars for retirement.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/investing/mega-backdoor-r...

[loeg]

It's "Mega Backdoor Roth" -- no "IRA." It's in your 401k, not an IRA plan. This is wholly distinct from the "backdoor Roth IRA" contributions which also have backdoor and Roth in the name.

[alfalfasprout]

As always, level matters. $180k/yr is quite low for Google and frankly and near or post IPO company at least at a non-junior level.

> You are paid an absurdly comfortable salary to basically solve puzzles all day No, you are paid commensurate to the value you can deliver. This "be grateful" attitude is becoming more prevalent in tech and is leading to companies getting away with lower pay and worse working conditions.

Companies are waking far more $$ from you than they pay you. Especially profitable tech companies.

[geodel]

> Companies are waking far more $$ from you than they pay you. Especially profitable tech companies.

Well of course they are. But then asking to pay more will not help. What's the leverage of people who should be paid lot more ? Because IMO if any of those engineers have leverage they are not taken for chump and get paid appropriately when they negotiate.