[Harmohit]

I am surprised I have not seen LabView mentioned in this thread. It is arguably one of the most popular visual programming languages after Excel and I absolutely hate it.

It has all the downsides of visual programming that the author mentions. The visual aspect of it makes it so hard to understand the flow of control. There is no clear left to right or top to bottom way of chronologically reading a program.

[BobbyTables2]

I agree.

LabView’s shining examples would be trivial Python scripts (aside from the GUI tweaking). However, it’s runtime interactive 2D graph/plot widgets are unequaled.

As soon as a “function” becomes slightly non trivial, the graphical nature makes it hard to follow.

Structured data with the “weak typedef” is a minefield.

A simple program to solve a quadratic equation becomes an absolute mess when laid out graphically. Textually, it would be a simple 5-6 line function that is easy to read.

Source control is also a mess. How does one “diff” a LabView program?

[jki275]

When I had some customers working with it a few years ago, they were trying to roll out a visual diff tool that would make source control possible.

I don't know if they ever really delivered anything or not. That system is such an abomination it drove me nuts dealing with it, and dealing with scientists who honestly believed it was the future of software engineering and all the rest of us were idiots for using C++.

The VIs are really nice, when you're connecting them up to a piece of measurement hardware to collect data the system makes sense for that. Anything further and it's utter garbage.

[dagw]

How does one “diff” a LabView program?

Take a look at FME, another visual 'programming language'. They've done a lot of work with their git integration, including diffing and handling merge conflicts.

https://docs.safe.com/fme/html/FME-Form-Documentation/FME-Fo...

[marcosdumay]

Python's equivalent of LabView would be Airflow. Both solve the same CS problem (even though the applications are very different).

Airflow it almost universally famous for being a confusing, hard to grasp framework. But nobody can actually point to anything better. But yeah, it's incomparably better than LabView, it's not even on the same race.

[DonaldFisk]

> Source control is also a mess. How does one “diff” a LabView program?

With LabVIEW, I'm not sure you can. But in general, there are two ways: either by doing a comparison of the underlying graphs of each function, or working on the stored textual representations of the topologically sorted graphs and comparing those. On a wider view, in general, as different versions of any code are nodes in a graph, a visual versioning system makes sense.

[jmholla]

> How does one “diff” a LabView program?

LabVIEW has a built-in differ.

[etrautmann]

And Simulink. I lost years in grad school to Simulink, but it is very nice for complex state machine programming. It’s self documenting in that way. Just hope you don’t have to debug it because that’s a special hell.

[IshKebab]

I quite like Simulink because it's designed for simulating physical systems which are naturally quite visual and bidirectional. Like circuit diagrams, pneumatics, engines, etc. You aren't writing for loops.

Also it is actually visually decent unlike LabVIEW which looks like it was drawn by someone who discovered MS Paint EGA edition.

[buescher]

Simulink is based on the block diagram notation used in control theory for decades earlier - before personal computers and workstations. The notation is rigorous enough you can pretty much pick up a book like the old Electro-Craft motor handbook (DC Motors Speed Controls Servo Systems), enter the diagrams into Simulink, and run them. With analogous allowances to how you would enter an old schematic into a SPICE simulator.

LabView was significantly more sui generis and originated on Macintosh about a decade earlier. I don't hate it but it really predates a lot of more recent user experience conventions.

[kmoser]

This is exactly why a visual representation of code can be useful for analyzing certain things, but will rarely be the best (or even preferred) way to write code.

I think a happy medium would be an environment where you could easily switch between "code" and "visual" view, and maybe even make changes within each, but I suspect developers will stick with "code" view most of the time.

Also, from the article: > Developers say they want "visual programming"

I certainly don't. What I do want is an IDE which has a better view into my entire project, including all the files, images, DB, etc., so it can make much better informed suggestions. Kind of like JetBrains on steroids, but with better built-in error checking and autocomplete suggestions. I want the ability to move a chunk of code somewhere else, and have the IDE warn me (or even fix the problem) when the code I move now references out-of-scope variables. In short, I want the IDE to handle most of the grunt work, so I can concentrate on the bigger picture.

[dralley]

Most industrial automation programming happens in an environment similar to LabView, if not LabView itself. DeltaV, Siemens, Allen-Bradley, etc. Most industrial facilities are absolutely full of them with text-based code being likely a small minority for anything higher level than the firmware of individual PLCs and such.

[ejiblabahaba]

A lot of these environments inherit a visual presentation style (ladder logic) that comes from the pre-computer era, and that works extremely well for electrical schematics when conveying asynchronous conditional behaviors to anyone, even people without much of a math background. There's a lot of more advanced functions these days that you write in plain C code in a hierarchical block, mostly for things like motor control.

[applied_heat]

I like function block on Schneider platform for Process control with more analog values than Boolean. It visualizes the inputs, control loop, and output nicely.

Numeric values in ladder feels a bit kludgey

[MisterTea]

These are standardized IEC 61131-3 languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_61131-3

Ladder, SFC and FBD are all graphical languages used to program PLC's. Ladder is directly based on electrical ladder schematics and common in the USA. The idea was electricians and plant technicians who understood ladder schematics could now program and troubleshoot industrial computers. SFC and FBD were more common in Europe but nowadays you mostly see Structured Text, a Pascal dialect (usually with bolted on vendor OOP lunacy.)

I will admit that for some programs, Ladder is fantastic. Of course ladder can be turned into horrid spaghetti if the programmer doesn't split up the logic properly

[eternityforest]

I think the whole flow concept is really only good for media pipelines and such.

In mathematics, everything exists at once just like real life.

In most programming languages, things happen in explicit discrete steps which makes things a lot easier, and most node based systems don't have that property.

I greatly prefer block based programming where you're dragging rules and command blocks that work like traditional programming, but with higher level functions, ease of use on mobile, and no need to memorize all the API call names just for a one off tasks.

[ocschwar]

What would be useful is a data flow representation of the call stack of a piece of code. Generated from source, and then brought back from the GUI into source.

[f1shy]

I still have to find somebody who worked with LabView that does not hate it.

It is a total abomination.

[bboygravity]

I don't hate it, I feel it's pretty good for talking to hardware, (understanding) multi-threading, agent oriented programming, message cues, etc.

It's also fairly good for making money: the oil and gass industry seems to like using it (note: n = 1, I only did one oil n gas project with it).

[duckmysick]

How does version control work with Labview?

Also, since you;ve done only one project with it, how hard was it to pick it up and learn?

[jpeloquin]

> How does version control work with Labview?

Labview does have diff and merge tools. It feels kind of clunky in practice, kind of like diffing/merging MS Office files. In my experience people think of versions of LabView code as immutable snapshots along a linear timeline and don't really expect to have merge commits. Code versions may as well be stored as separate folders with revision numbers. The mindset is more hardware-centric; e.g., when rewiring a physical data acquisition system, reverting a change just means doing the work over again differently. So LabView's deficiencies in version control don't stand out as much as they would in pure software development.

https://www.ni.com/docs/en-US/bundle/labview/page/comparing-...

[bboygravity]

I used Labview as part of a course in my degree (EE), so I already knew it.

If you know other languages I would say it's very easy to pick up. Probably the easiest out of any language out there. Instead of heaving to guess/learn the syntax, you just pick functionality from icons/lists and drag and drop.

[InvisibleUp]

As someone who used to use (and hate) LabVIEW, a lot of my hatred towards it was directed at the truly abysmal IDE. The actual language itself has a lot of neat features, especially for data visualization and highly parallel tasks.