[worldsayshi]

Part of the solution is probably to rethink the whole UX context. One interesting example to think about is ProtoFlux, a part of Resonite:

https://youtu.be/70PH5cQQEdQ?si=y4YmhnimzferVpCD

Since you develop inside vr you can also talk about and show the code in the same vr environment.

It's probably at this level we need to rethink stuff to make visual programming practical.

[vidarh]

But then you want to write about it and explain it to someone else, and you're back to needing a way to represent it that fits on a page or can be explained verbally.

[worldsayshi]

ProtoFlux is largely explained through tutorial videos I think. And I'm not saying that is superior. But I can imagine a lot of quality of life features around explaining it through voice that could be added to make it potentially superior or at least competitive.

You could for example explain every node verbally and visually to an AI bot that can then explain it to the next person, or selectively retrieve parts of your explanations on demand. (OK, I realize that sounds unnecessary complex.)

[vidarh]

Requiring me to watch videos to follow along is an absolute non-starter to me. It's way too slow. If it was just learning an environment maybe I could tolerate that, but the showstoppers is communicating about code for projects. An AI bot doesn't solve this - if you can't relay the information textually, there's no reason the AI bot will be able to.

[worldsayshi]

Are you saying visual programming languages can only work if they can be explained with text?

[adastra22]

No he's saying that video is an inefficient and ineffective medium for conveying information that is not respectful of the recipient's time.

[vidarh]

Sibling is right that video was the problem for me with that specific bit, but also: Text isn't necessarily a hard requirement, but the alternative is harder, in that then you need a tool chain that covers everything we do with code. That includes putting it in blog posts, emails, Slack in ways that are searchable, and can be decomposed into smaller bits, so images are insufficient.

It's possible for a visual programming system to work without it, but it will need to be accordingly a far bigger step up.

Consider searchability on e.g. Stack overflow for example. If people don't have a consistent, shared vocabulary, just lack of searchable exposure is likely to forever condemning it to a niche.

[worldsayshi]

I agree with most of your points up to this:

>likely to forever condemning it to a niche.

The context within which we build visual programming languages needs to change in order for it to stop being a niche. As you point out, the alternative is [much] harder [today]. But I think that VR, as an example, will be forced to solve a lot of difficult UX problems if VR is to progress beyond a niche. And once those problems have found satisfying solutions the context for building nice visual programming languages will likely also have improved significantly.