[trod123]

You are mistaken. There is real harm in strangers knowing sensitive information about you. You seem to have a blindspot for how coercion works. There's harassment, struggle sessions, and blackmail as well as many other things.

If someone knows the normal hours you are at home, they can enter your home without much risk. They can plant evidence, Interfere in your life in ways that you can't easily fix, or even create situations where you get harmed or die from an accident. Information gathering is a necessary pre-requisite for a successful attack, and by itself it is an act of hostile intent.

The argument doesn't come down to dystopian future. It comes down to the fact that people in corrupt systems lie, and those lies can torture the victim without any recourse.

Information is abused regularly.

Once you see it, you can memorize it and transmit it without a paper trail. You can even have a plausible reason for needing to access that information in the first place.

It is ephemeral and its security relies on trust of an untrustable entity that trends towards corruption as a structural flaw.

All centralized hierarchies as a structure involving people either perform action based on a distribution of labor that is incentivized (away from a loss function), or they do so through corruption (in its absence).

In either case, there is incentive and there is no other means to overcome the natural friction towards inaction.

[w0m]

I think you made his point fairly clearly.

>hypothetical future harm

Does a non-techy boomer worry that Microsoft is going to use their cookie-research browsing data to harass/coerce/blackmail them?

You're describing what a hypothetical future-booggieman can do; not what to be feared now that the nontechy is reading about on the news.

[trod123]

> You're describing what a hypothetical future-booggieman can do...

Unfortunately no, being deadly serious here I'm describing what can be done today fairly trivially (to any target), and done in a way without alerting the victim that its even happening. They simply seem to have bad luck with a monkey on their back that they can't see everywhere they go in society. They are deprived of opportunities without their knowledge, be it gender relations, labor relations, citizen-government relations etc; its applies equally at all levels.

There are multiple ways than just what follows to do this:

Shall we go down the rabbit hole?

Starting off with a compromise and transparent SSL proxy termination through failures at the network edge (firmware level, between Router or Cable Modem and ISP/Internet).

Note the point the guy makes that Cable Modem standards require 56bit encryption to remain working, and there being no authentication for sensitive requests (i.e. query then update that firmware for one of something like 8 models of microcontroller architecture).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hk2DsCWGXs

From here, middle man most traffic (it says encrypted to the victim, its not encrypted), Deny service selectively (delayed update of antivirus, certificate revocation, etc), deny service selectively of inbound email and/or remove specific emails (breaking communication with a non-response you never receive), close opened resolution processes posing as the user, or the vendor CSR using generated correspondence or voice AI based in unofficial versions of GPT. The more induced frustration the better (higher cost).

Analyse traffic behavior for time spent on entertainment as potential targets. Isolate communications, prune social networks gradually.

Delay interrupt driven communications to the point of uselessness (friends ignore you, relationships wither and die, they see it as you not being interested/flaky, you see it as them not being interested; no way to validate and a lack of belief that it follows you across services; they firmly believe you are either crazy or are ghosting them and withdraw because you don't respond to communications they send you which you don't know about, and communications on their side are not impaired with other people).

ISPs may extend their cellular coverage through edge-based repeaters/mesh network allowing interception. Prevent or delay SMS/Voice Communications of all forms targeted and intermittently. (i.e. medical communications to coordinate scheduling/testing for cancer/mortal diseases early? etc...) Failures are systemic failures of the company not an adversary... or so they perceive. "It is just everyone is so incompetent, it can't be malice", someone would have ensured this is unthinkable.

If they love something (what your identity is based on), like chess, pose as the chess server and always match and win against them using an engine to demoralize. They would see perfect play 7/10 times, assume its representative of the state of thing, and despite having the expectation that they are playing against people they are constantly being the victim of deceit. This Distorts Reflected Appraisal changing their worldview subtly, the more wide in subject/situation, the worse the distortion gets; it destructively interferes with Self Concept and their Identity hollowing them out inducing hypnotic states commonly known and seen in torture from WW2/Mao but without that physical threat (its just an omnipresent threat). The mind in these states is malleable and remembers details more easily, this is where ads come in. Induce hate, disunity, derision, disgust in every one and thing they love; segment the victim into a cohort.

Make what they love shit, pose as the user for any number of harmful effects (i.e. request mail forwarding to some other address now the victim gets no mail and it goes to lost mail once the forwarded address says not here), report the property as vacant, intercept e-file make it so it appears to be submitted (when it doesn't); what happens when you don't file taxes or pay taxes?, or replace with incorrect taxes posing as the user (fraud, whose responsible?).

Google Information Services can have a fake business listing registered at an address. The victims own devices generate a busy time graph as they do for any business which is public. This is when they are home.

A Roku/Smart TV may be remotely triggered to enable the voice control mic to turn on regularly and place shows that destructively interfere with your view in their queues. They would see this as the company.

All this happens outside the users ability to perceive or largely control. It forms the basis for a struggle session (mental coercion/torture) they cannot escape from it.

With isolation and distorted view of the world you can ramp this up continually until they break psychologically, no physical presence needed. Slow, steady, and increasing the anaconda coils. If you don't minutely adjust within some arbitrary viewpoint the anaconda eats you.

If you've made fun of those insane Trump Supporters that are still with him despite everything he has done, this is a perfect example of the long-lasting permanency of mental coercion with persistence that naturally comes with demagogues, but is also being engineered using the same elsewhere for purpose.

The victims of this menticide either disassociate no longer contributing anything to anyone or reacting to anything, commit suicide, or become psychotic taking it out on other people violently until they are stopped. No physical presence needed because every single IOT/tech system has been shimmed towards benefiting a malicious adversary without a trace (since detailed network logs aren't kept longer than a certain period due to storage costs).

Need I continue?

Psychologically unstable people can be easily manipulated by timely showing solutions or ways out that temporarily resolve difficulties (pay for play to be that solution) in the middle of such torture.

Ever talk about purple dog collars with friends for awhile repeating the word and then see purple dog collars in all those ads on all your devices for up to 2-3 days later?

How do you think they know to show you those ads? The devices largely don't have the hardware specifications to do that computation at the edge so its collected, aggregated into a profile centrally, and used against you in sophisticated brainwashing/torturous ways that are simply claimed to be harmless marketing/adtech (you have to prove otherwise).

Incidentally, this is the why and how false confessions to crimes people didn't do are made, its been known since the 1950s.

Tech makes the links ephemeral with a false but generalized presumption that they are working in all cases unless you can prove otherwise which has no paper trail because it vanished immediately after it happened.

If you'd like to research these mechanisms for Thought Reform and indoctrination from sound expert material further (its dark), I'd suggest Robert Lifton "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism", and John Meerloo "Rape of the Mind" for the foundational material. Its not absurd like most people are conditioned to believe from the irrational association of this depicted subject in media.

Communists use this as a divide a conquer strategy for regime change (most governments do too).

Monopolists use this to pressure consumers to buy things they wouldn't normally buy. This is how they capitalize on the inducements of anxiety and other emotional states they paid for via their marketing budget.

Governments use the shimmed parts to spy. Everyone benefits but the individual.

It is why the world today feels like torture to many rational people; it actually is torture and you just didn't realize it because you were not educated properly, and it was snuck in when you were not looking. It is also de-facto protected by the first amendment because of lack of standing and any interference by government to correct is a violation of the constitution.

It has been known by experts that free-will isn't guaranteed and has largely been broken for quite some time absent few exceptional individuals. These things warp people into stilted lesser versions of themselves that are incapable of further growth (by purposeful design).

Yes most of these things are very much against the law, but those laws are not self-enforcing and you have no proof, and opsec is simple when so many things are shimmed and ephemeral. Outside extreme measures coupled with extreme expertise it is impossible to detect, and equally challenging to hold those engaging in such evil to account.

Even most IT professionals lack an appropriate background knowledge to properly analyse firmware or log signal data between non-standard interfaces (i.e. coax beyond the demarcation point of responsibility, where law may punish any observer) which would be needed to overturn that irrational presumption that everything is working (uphill battle in any centralized/corrupt structure).

If you are thinking, this is crazy-making nightmare fuel...

It is, and it has valid and sound basis, and few outside the deepest niches and technical circles know (not belief).

It is an uphill battle just communicating the danger, in opposition to indoctrination caused by the many hidden systems designed for malign corruption and influence.

Edit: If you want to rip some of that indoctrination conditioning to shreds, I'd suggest Bazzel's book: Open Source Intelligence 10th Edition.

[advael]

I think we do ourselves a disservice by making "conspiracy theory" the common parlance for what is quite often just being swayed by a popular kind of diversion propaganda (the fact-thin doppelgangers of real controversies or investigations of the various complicated systems of surveillance and control that surround us) when in fact the issue is inadequate capacity for assessing the plausibility of a particular theory, the sources it comes from, identifying and resisting motivated reasoning and especially the hijacking thereof by others, or doing the cost-benefit analysis for both accepting a theory and courses of action conditioned on it

Organizations are secretive by default, countless intersecting ones have influence over our lives, communication and information are pervasive but can also be fully encrypted. It is effectively impossible that there is no conspiracy anywhere that's relevant to your life, and there is no perfect way to get accurate information about all such conspiracies

I really don't have much means to epistemically assess the threat model you've presented here except to say that it seems obviously technologically feasible, especially given that many overlapping approaches here don't need to all work for the stated aims

But perhaps more importantly, elucidating this motivates me to be more skeptical of my internal reasoning for feeling malaise, depression, and aimlessness, and as a belligerent person, even an irrational belief that this is being induced (even stochastically rather than in a targeted way) is likely going to be an enduringly effective way to resist it. Something about having an intention to defy an adversary rather than some less agentic explanation seems to benefit the underlying problem regardless of whether it's true

[trod123]

> Something about having an intention to defy an adversary ... to benefit the underlying problem regardless

For the most part I am in agreement, albeit as you might imagine I do have 1st and 2nd hand knowledge and experience interacting,remediating, and mitigating these types of situations, which are not that uncommon at the VP/executive level of global companies (insofar as it being on the IT side).

I am sure some people reading what I previously wrote would have thought, that is oddly specific for the disparate subject matter being covered. Many of the specifics are based in actual observations, first or second hand.

Unfortunately even a process you mention taken to an extreme has its own failings that need to be assessed and addressed.

I would add that it is equally important to be mindful and maintain a balance of healthy skepticism about one's own reasoning in this context, and in doing so consistently test whether discarding opportunities is appropriately supported or irrational (i.e. jumping at shadows). Having an awareness of the dangers provides forewarning which forearms and empowers us to not be mindlessly swayed.

It is a tough habit to get into for most, because frankly it is a lot of work, and when starting out fresh simple things take a lot of effort to engram, and the benefits need to outweigh the cost (which coercive methods adds to).

People generally also want to believe in goodfaith in their fellow man, and with any want comes an almost imperceptible bias. Also adversaries seek out and take advantage of presumptions, to turn it towards their advantage. Even an automatic response towards defense or discard could be used by them to deny you opportunities, which result in similar inducements in a round about way.

If one is not careful of these drawbacks you can miss out on a lot of opportunities naturally.

Like with any propaganda/influence I've found the most benefit in a few simple practices. First, withholding agreement automatically to avoid psychological consistency traps, as Cialdini notes as well in his psychology book on Influence.

Conditioning an almost automatic response to question or discard ambiguity where language has been rationally corrupted, such as where words have conflicting underlying meanings depending on misleading context (a common deceitful tactic), also where one gets a sense of confusion as these are often indicators of hypnotic influence on your mental state.

Taking the time to appropriately review what is said. When one is hurried, people often rely on their unconscious habits, or fixed action patterns of tasks/muscle memory. Speed reading for example often converts text to images/concepts, but also largely removes the filters we have for discernment.

Finally, minimizing attack surface by default, and limiting exposure/opportunity for attack while still performing the necessary 'critical' evaluation checks.

This seems to be the best balanced approach I've come across so far, albeit it does run the knife's edge; and mistakes in judgment are inevitable given incomplete information, and that few today take care that their words have no conflicting ambiguity. There were much more words in use during the 30s-50s largely because they had a hyper-rational view, and subscribed to a rational approach with one word to one non-conflicting meaning.

It is generally not a good thing to close off opportunities automatically without rational cause, and few people today actually consciously have the framework or tooling to evaluate credibility, based on observed deceits of a source. It requires a lot of discipline.

As a side note, in hypnotism, they often refer to inducing covert hypnotic states as bypassing the 'critical' factor. Conditioning oneself to maintain a critical view dulls or negates a lot of the benefit, for an adversary.

Concluding, with a small side note, ironically, these type of environments which we now find ourselves in actually provide a very sound and practical argument for internalizing strong religious beliefs with regards to the associated values, as a defense mechanism, albeit alongside an equally rational framework and principles.

From a interesting perspective, there may be very little difference between conditioning an automatic response to stimuli for this purpose, and the feelings one gets when subject matter violates their deeply held religious beliefs. When properly functioning, both would draw the required immediate attention, criticality, and wariness needed to avoid destructive outcomes (i.e. evil, as Illyin defines it when refuting Tolstoy's pacifism).