[metadat]

> The integrated DJI Avinox electric power assist system leverages DJI's cutting-edge technologies in both software and hardware design, offering 850 W of peak power (250 W nominal power) in an ultra-light body of 19.2kg

This is most unimpressive. I have an 2019 3000w LunaCycle e-mountain bike (based on the Giant Anthem) with similar drive system weight specs, which includes the ginormous 40ah battery.

Why can't DJI compete with something nice from 5 years ago?

[TaylorAlexander]

Legal limit in USA is 750 watts, legal limit in UK is 250 watts. Competition on power output is illegal. I have a BBSHD which can be trivially programmed to 1500w output (likely the same as your Luna cycle without a custom controller) and it’s great. It is widely regarded that there is no enforcement of power limits, but manufacturers can’t really advertise illegal power limits for sale.

Many high power ebike enthusiasts (for example “High Voltage DIY Electric Bikes” channel on YouTube) argue that these low legal power limits actually make e-bikes less safe, as you need a good 2-3kw to actually ride with the flow of traffic. At US or worse UK power limits, you don’t get enough of a boost for that and you’re more likely to get hit from behind.

In my case 1500 watts feels like a good low range of what I would want. Luckily for work I’ve been developing my own open source brushless motor controller for a few years now, and we’re finally maturing past the self-immolation phase of motor controller design. I’m going to try to outfit my bike with it eventually. Later on I would like to make a 72 volt version (84v peak, so 100 volt parts).

https://youtube.com/@highvoltagekits

https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller/tr...

https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller/tr...

[Aurornis]

> Many high power ebike enthusiasts (for example “High Voltage DIY Electric Bikes” channel on YouTube) argue that these low legal power limits actually make e-bikes less safe, as you need a good 2-3kw to actually ride with the flow of traffic. At US or worse UK power limits, you don’t get enough of a boost for that and you’re more likely to get hit from behind.

Those "High power ebike enthusiasts" are actually "small electric motorcycle" enthusiasts.

The point of the regulations is to keep the power levels within the range of what's expected for a bike.

I'm fine with a separate class of regulations allowing higher power, but only if those vehicles are easily disallowed from bike trails. If the goal is to ride around with cars in traffic all day, it shouldn't be a problem to be banned from bike trails. There's a real problem of overpowered DIY or hacked e-bikes tearing up trails everywhere and getting out of control.

3kw is 4 horsepower. It's more than even the world record for peak human power output and far more than any human can sustain.

I think it's cool that people build these high power machines, but let's be honest about what they are: Electric motorcycles, not bikes.

[pandaman]

Trails and bike lanes too. If you want an electric motorcycle - get one, get a license, register it and stay the fuck off the bike paths.

[mping]

Well put. I wouldn't want to ride with my kids with a 3000w bike breezing pass me in the bike lane at 45km/h

[metadat]

Did you know lots of people can ride a road bike under 100% human power at 27MPH+ (45kph?)? Parent comment doesn't align with commonly observed reality.

Iron Man participants regularly ride at an average speed of 24mph+ continuously for 112 miles in extremely harsh conditions (Hawaiian heat).

Also, over the course of many thousands of miles I've never observed any cyclist riding past vulnerable children at these speeds. What is the problem exactly? People going "fast" on a 50lb bicycle with nobody else around? How is this a threat?

Most people aren't out to get you, especially bicyclists.

If you want to direct energy towards something, please send it towards the inconsiderate cars vectoring a 3ton+ vehicle at 25-75MPH even when they see a person in the road ahead. It's sad when a human is struck by a vehicle.

*I usually don't respond to comments like this one but after being hit by a car while I was in the bike lane on Veterans Blvd in Redwood City, CA in 2018, who didn't bother stop (or even notice they'd hit and knocked me down?), it's a bit of a sore spot. The difference between a car and a weapon is what, exactly? Even an overpowered e-bike is nothing compared to any of the tens of thousands of cars who kill and maim cyclists and pedestrians in the U.S.A. annually.

[metadat]

Thanks for the pile-on, but this is completely irrelevant to what I was posting about. The DJI kit is very heavy (in KG) to deliver a comparatively puny amount of power. That is the interesting point, not the legality of an e-bike I purchased 5 years ago and haven't had any trouble with. Just saying.. be cool.

P.s. parent has heavily edited their comment to not resemble the original comment. For whatever it's worth, I don't have any particular agenda except to share information. I'm logging off for the evening, because this is peak nonsense.

[TaylorAlexander]

Maybe technically correct, but these are being sold as bicycles. I think the biggest distinction between most (but not all) high powered ebikes and electric motorcycles is that most of the ebikes can be powered by pedaling (except bikes like the Sur Ron).

We can make a legal category for "electric motorcycles with pedals" or we can call them high powered electric bicycles. I don't care so much what we call them as long as we recognize that this type of vehicle is extremely valuable in fighting climate change and building more walkable cities with less need for automobile infrastructure. If everyone could legally ride a 2kw ebike around town with some nice panniers or a rack for cargo space, so many automobile trips could be eliminated.

> I'm fine with a separate class of regulations allowing higher power, but only if those vehicles are easily disallowed from bike trails. If the goal is to ride around with cars in traffic all day, it shouldn't be a problem to be banned from bike trails.

When you say trails, I could agree on dirt trails where erosion and environmental damage is an issue. But as we build out better bicycle infrastructure around the country, we have more and more dedicated paved bike paths. It would be absurd to me if bikes like my 1.5kw ebike were barred from paved bike paths. And note, it already is! Most of the paved bike paths around Oakland and Berkeley are legally restricted to class 2 ebikes. My bike is beyond class 3, and so illegal both generally and on these paths. But I don't think it should be! I have been bicycling for almost 40 years, so I am extremely respectful of other people and I don't want to blow past anyone. Maybe there need to be more fine grained laws around etiquitte, or maybe we need to expand our notion of bike paths to include 3kw ebikes. There must be some middle ground between surface streets with 4000lb vehicles and bike paths that are only for low powered or human powered bicycles.

But my broad point is, these vehicles are extremely important to a world with reduced carbon emissions. They are much more useful than a regular bike (which I also ride quite a lot) for transportation purposes, and so better as a car replacement. They take less resources and emissions to produce, they use less energy to move a person, they are safer for pedestrians than automobiles, appropriate infrastructure takes up less space, etc etc etc.

The attitude of "that's a motorcycle! you had better keep that as far away from me as possible" is a negative-focused view on what can be an extremely transformative technology.

I know there are assholes and irresponsible people, and actually a good friend of mine broke their leg in an ebike-on-ebike collision in the UK on a legal 250w ebike, so I understand that injuries can still happen. And I absolutely do not want assholes blowing past old ladies or parents walking their kids in strollers.

But we MUST consider the real value this new type of machine has to offer, and genuinely take time to consider how they should be used. The knee-jerk claim that it is just a motorcycle is missing that in reality they are a new class of vehicle. Similar to a bicycle and similar to a motorcycle, but lighter than one, easier to handle, and I would argue much more useful.

So sure, let us create regulations around them. But let us make sure we allow them on appropriate bike paths, and build the right infrastructure to take advantage of such a useful new type of machine.

[MrsPeaches]

3kW I assume?

[bagels]

Is that a legal bike in your jurisdiction? In California you're riding an unregistered moped, illegally, most likely.

I suspect DJI is aiming for legal bikes that established bicycle manufacturers can sell.

[Aurornis]

Definitely not legal.

These are popular with a subset of DIY builders because the laws aren't really enforced, so they can get a small electric motorcycle that passes as an e-bike while not adhering to the requirements for a vehicle that powerful.

Some will try to claim that if you set the bike to the lowest power then it's legal, but of course they'll quietly switch the power to whatever they want when riding.

[_zoltan_]

I can't imagine a 3kW bicycle to be legal anywhere. here in Europe you'd need an A1 license for it.

[metadat]

Fwiw you wouldn't ride around town at 3kw, that would be ridiculous and dangerous. The default power level is "1" (out of 5) which assists with around 180-250w.

Fun trail bike though (helpful on the uphills, for someone who doesn't typically enjoy that part).

[wolpoli]

In BC, Canada, there is a maximum motor power limit of 500W for e-bikes. I am not sure if switching (or locking?) the e-bike to power assist level 1 would qualify.

[metadat]

The point is, if DJI's system is lower power, shouldn't it be significantly lighter?

[bagels]

Depends on the engineering requirements of each system. Maybe? Price point, materials, durability, manufacturing volume, size and other factors definitely affect the weight.

[SkyPuncher]

Not necessarily.

Large portions of the casual bike segment don’t care about weight - other than lifting it on and off their bike rack.

[metadat]

It seems quite shortsighted, weight makes a huge difference. My brother recently bought some 75-80lb steel-framed e-bike with small diamerer wide wheels, and couldn't even make it 30 miles with pedal-assist before it died. The last 10 miles his speed plummeted from 15-17mph to 4-6mph at most, and this is for a very strong (but out of bicycling shape) guy. On unpowered bikes he is much faster than me, and I'm not a slouch.

I tried riding the steel thing with no battery and it was not pleasant at all. Compare that to my LunaCycle, even at 50lbs total it's not that bad to ride with no power.

Is it mostly clueless people (like my bro) falling for "It has a battery so heavy bike weight will not matter"?

[tln]

Your LunaCycle probably weighs > 70lbs!

The Amflow PL bikes lists in the press release as 43lb which isn't "revolutionary" but 850W and 600Wh battery is way more than the other really light MTBs. And those other ones are really expensive.

I'm looking forward to seeing price. I wish they had shared some specs regarding noise, it sounds like they have put some effort into optimizing that as well.

I like my 1500W LunaCycle, but would eagerly trade for a bike that weighs 2/3 as much and is a bit quieter

[metadat]

It's a little under 50lbs in total I think. Something like 48-52lbs if memory serves. By the way, it wasn't easy standing on a scale holding the bike, but when it was I felt this to be very necessary, haha.

But the numbers make sense, without the battery and motor, the bike should be around 15 pounds, which leaves ~35 lbs of battery + motor.

*p.s. Apparently I was mistaken up in the thread - the battery pack is only 21AH, not 40.