[Forgeties79]

It doesn’t matter how it has historically been used, it matters how it is being used now. What they are describing is accurate.

I heard comments like yours all the time when people were saying we needed to take QAnon more seriously. People thought it was fringe, that people concerned were “terminally online.” Even as we saw their talking points work their way into mainstream conservative outlets.

Then January 6th happened. Everyone knows what QAnon is now.

[skissane]

> It doesn’t matter how it has historically been used, it matters how it is being used now. What they are describing is accurate.

Did you notice that the link in the comment you were replying to, has a photo of that “Appeal to Heaven” flag from a Black Lives Matter protest in 2020? And it seems clear it was being flown by BLM supporters, not anti-BLM counterprotestors.

You want to claim that other meanings are purely historical and in contemporary usage it exclusively means “white Christian nationalist”. If the only other examples of its usage people could point to were from decades ago, your argument might have some force. But, given we have photographic evidence of people with a diametrically opposite ideology using it less than 5 years ago, your argument is not very convincing.

[Forgeties79]

You can’t divorce his politics from the discussion. The people who he politically/ideologically agrees with on the right fly this flag specifically. Other groups also fly it. It can mean different things to different people. My argument is not nearly as myopic as you’re making it out to be.

[skissane]

You keep on assuming his politics is the same as his wife’s. Even if they are both on the right, the right is a very big place, where people have different positions on various issues. Even assuming that flag tells us where exactly on the right Martha resides - and I’m not sure it does, maybe she flew it because she liked how it looked as opposed to as an exercise in political expression - we still can’t assume that Samuel resides in the same political location.

[Forgeties79]

I don’t need to assume, we have a lot of insight into why those flags were flown.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/former-neighbor-disput...

Their bogus excuse is very damning. Or at least real event they used as an excuse, but the timeline doesn’t make sense, so they’re lying.

[skissane]

There are two different flags at issue here–the upside-down American flag, and the "Appeal to Heaven"–the former was flown at their main residence, the second at their vacation home. Both have long histories of being used all over the political spectrum (both right and left), to mean lots of different things.

The article you are citing is relying on the claims of an angry former neighbour. Why assume that the Alito's are lying or mistaken, when it seems just as possible that their ex-neighbour could be.

In any event, even if we assume the ex-neighbour's claims are 100% true, they still don't prove (1) that Martha Alito flew the flag with intention to express a highly specific political message, (2) even supposing that was her intention, it still doesn't prove Samuel Alito was supporting her expressive act, as opposed to simply allowing his wife to do what she wants to do.

[Forgeties79]

unfortunately I think we have both made up our mind on the subject and it’s not going to be productive to discuss this further. Have a good weekend.

[hobs]

And would you say Alito's wife is flying it for her support for BLM or... something else?

Getting abstract and dissembling about it doesn't change the fact that the meaning is clear and obvious to anyone who isn't sea lioning. It's clear to their supporters because it needs to be to be effective.

[sickofparadox]

Is it not possible to simply fly a flag for the love of the flag? I own a number of flags from various countries and periods. I have no particular attachment to the Whiskey Rebellion, but I like the flag and fly it regularly.

[Forgeties79]

yes that is possible, except we know that’s not what has been happening.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/former-neighbor-disput...

We can dispute the specifics of his motivations but clearly these have not been simple cases of “I just like the flag.” It’s also pretty bizarre to fly the flag upside down for fun.