[JackSlateur]

What are you talking about ? My early-2022 ryzen 5625U shows:

  Vulnerabilities:          
    Gather data sampling:   Not affected
    Itlb multihit:          Not affected
    L1tf:                   Not affected
    Mds:                    Not affected
    Meltdown:               Not affected
    Mmio stale data:        Not affected
    Reg file data sampling: Not affected
    Retbleed:               Not affected
    Spec rstack overflow:   Vulnerable: Safe RET, no microcode
    Spec store bypass:      Mitigation; Speculative Store Bypass disabled via prctl
    Spectre v1:             Mitigation; usercopy/swapgs barriers and __user pointer sanitization
    Spectre v2:             Mitigation; Retpolines; IBPB conditional; IBRS_FW; STIBP always-on; RSB filling; PBRSB-eIBRS Not affected; BHI Not affected
    Srbds:                  Not affected
    Tsx async abort:        Not affected

Only regular stuff

[_rdvw]

KPTI won't be default enabled on Linux on AMD CPUs is the issue here.

Yet it provides valuable separation between kernel and userspace address ranges.

iirc the predecessor to KPTI was made before these hw flaws were announced as a general enhancement to ASLR.

AMD aside, Spectre V2 isn't even default mitigated for userspace across the board, you must specify spectre_v2=on for userspace to be protected.

https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/kernel-pa...

[paulmd]

> KPTI won't be default enabled on Linux on AMD CPUs is the issue here. Yet it provides valuable separation between kernel and userspace address ranges.

AMD's security bulletin is actually incredibly weaselly and in fact quietly acknowledges KPTI as the reason further mitigation is not necessary, and then goes on to recommend that KPTI remain disabled anyway.

https://www.amd.com/en/resources/product-security/bulletin/a...

> The attacks discussed in the paper do not directly leak data across address space boundaries. As a result, AMD is not recommending any mitigations at this time.

That's literally the entire bulletin, other than naming the author and recommending you follow security best-practices. Two sentences, one of which is "no mitigations required at this time", for an exploit which is described by the author (who is also a named author of the Meltdown paper!) as "worse than Meltdown", in the most popular brand of server processor.

Like it's all very carefully worded to avoid acknowledging the CVE in any way, but to also avoid saying anything that's technically false. If you do not enable KPTI then there is no address space boundary, and leakage from the kernel can occur. And specifically that leakage is page-table layouts - which AMD considers "only metadata" and therefore not important (not real data!).

But it is a building block which amplifies all these other attacks, including Specter itself. Specter was tested in the paper itself and - contrary to AMD's statement (one of the actual falsehoods they make despite their weaseling) - does result in actual leakage of kernel data and not just metadata (the author notes that this is a more severe leak than meltdown itself). And leaking metadata is bad enough by itself - like many kinds of metadata, the page-table layouts are probably more interesting (per byte exfiltrated) than the actual data itself!

AMD's interest is in shoving it under the rug as quietly as possible - the solution is flushing the caches every time you enter/leave kernel space, just like with Meltdown. That's what KPTI is/does, you flush caches to isolate the pages. And AMD has leaned much more heavily on large last-level caches than Intel has, so this hurts correspondingly more.

But I don't know why the kernel team is playing along with this. The sibling commenter is right in the sense that this is not something that is being surfaced to users to let them know they are vulnerable, and that the kernel team continues to follow the AMD recommendation of insecure-by-default and letting the issue go quietly under the rug at the expense of their customers' security. This undercuts something that the kernel team has put significant engineering effort into mitigating - not as important as AMD cheating on benchmarks with an insecure configuration I guess.

There has always been a weird sickly affection for AMD in the enthusiast community, and you can see it every time there's an AMD vulnerability. When the AMD vulns really started to flow a couple years ago, there was basically a collective shrug and we just decided to ignore them instead of mitigating. So much for "these vulnerabilities only exist because [the vendor] decided to cut corners in the name of performance!". Like that's explicitly the decision AMD has made with their customers' security. And everyone's fine with it, same weird sickly affection for AMD as ever among the enthusiast community. This is a billion-dollar company cutting corners on their customers' security so they can win benchmarks. It's bad. It shouldn't need to be said, but it does.

I very much feel that - even given that people's interest or concern about these exploits is fading over time - that even today (let alone a couple years ago) Intel certainly would not have received the same level of deference if they just said that a huge, performance-sapping patch was "not really necessary" and that everyone should just run their systems in an insecure configuration so that benchmarks weren't unduly harmed. It's a weird thing people have where they need to cover all the bases before they will acknowledge the slightest fault or problem or misbehavior with this specific corporation. Same as the sibling who disputed all this because Linux said he was secure - yeah, the kernel team doesn't seem to care about that, but as I demonstrated there is still a visible timing thing even on current BIOS/OS combinations.

Same damn thing with Ryzenfall too - despite the skulduggery around Monarch, CTS Labs actually did find a very serious vuln (actually 3-4 very serious exploits that let them break out of guest/jailbreak PSP and bypass AMD's UEFI signing and achieve persistence, and it's funny to look back at the people whining that it doesn't deserve a 9.0 severity or whatever. Shockingly, MITRE doesn't give those out for no reason, and AMD doesn't patch "root access lets you do root things" for no reason either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuqefIZrRWc

I get why AMD is doing it. I don't get why the kernel team plays along. It's unintentionally a really good question from the sibling: why isn't the kernel team applying the standards uniformly? Here's A Modest Security Proposal: if we just don't care about this class of exploit anymore, and KASLR isn't going to be a meaningful part of a defense-in-depth, shouldn't it be disabled for everyone at this point? Is that a good idea?

[JackSlateur]

But is this not the same thing on intel CPU ? I believe "new" intel CPU are, too, unaffected by meltdown, and so kpti will be disabled there by default.

[paulmd]

if there are no errata leading to (FG)KASLR violations, then no problem disabling KPTI as a general security boundary. The thing I am saying is that vendors do not agree on processors providing ASLR timing attack protection as a defined security boundary in all situations.

you need to either implement processor-level ASLR protections (and probably these guarantees fade over time!) or kpti/flush your shit when you move between address spaces. Or there needs to be an understanding from the kernel team that they need to develop under the page allocation model that attackers can see your allocation patterns after initial breaches. like let's say they breach your PRNG key. Should there be additional compartmentalization after that? Multiple keys at multiple security boundaries / within the stack more generally to increase penetration time across security boundaries?

seemingly the expectation is one or the other though, because ASLR security is being treated as a security boundary.

I also very much feel that at this point KPTI is just a generalized good defense in depth. If that's the defense that's going to be deployed after your shit falls through... let's just flush it preemptively, right? That's not the current practice but should it be?

[_rdvw]

Also if you don't have a bios update available for that newer microcode, give my real-ucode package a try: https://github.com/divestedcg/real-ucode

The linux-firmware repo does not provide AMD microcode updates to consumer platforms unlike Intel.

[paulmd]

these are the tests you need to run: https://github.com/amdprefetch/amd-prefetch-attacks/blob/mas...

you probably want to do `export WITH_TLB_EVICT=1` before you make, then run ./kaslr. The power stuff is patched (by removing the RAPL power interface) but there is still timing differences visible on my 5700G and the WITH_TLB_EVICT makes this fairly obvious/consistent:

https://pastebin.com/1n0QbHTH

```csv

452,0xffffffffb8000000,92,82,220

453,0xffffffffb8200000,94,82,835

454,0xffffffffb8400000,110,94,487

455,0xffffffffb8600000,83,75,114

456,0xffffffffb8800000,83,75,131

457,0xffffffffb8a00000,109,92,484

458,0xffffffffb8c00000,92,82,172

459,0xffffffffb8e00000,110,94,499

460,0xffffffffb9000000,92,82,155

```

those timing differences are the presence/nonpresence of kernel pages in the TLB, those are the KASLR pages, they’re slower when the TLB eviction happens because of the extra bookkeeping.

then we have the stack protector canary on the last couple pages of course:

```csv

512,0xffffffffbf800000,91,82,155

513,0xffffffffbfa00000,92,82,147

514,0xffffffffbfc00000,92,82,151

515,0xffffffffbfe00000,91,82,137

516,0xffffffffc0000000,112,94,598

517,0xffffffffc0200000,110,94,544

518,0xffffffffc0400000,110,94,260

519,0xffffffffc0600000,110,94,638

```

edit: the 4 pages at the end of the memory space are very consistent between tests and across reboots, and the higher lookup time goes away if you set the kernel boot option "pti=on" manually at startup, that’s the insecure behavior as described in the paper.

log with pti=on kernel option: https://pastebin.com/GK5KfsYd

```csv

513,0xffffffffbfa00000,92,82,147

514,0xffffffffbfc00000,92,82,123

515,0xffffffffbfe00000,92,82,141

516,0xffffffffc0000000,91,82,134

517,0xffffffffc0200000,91,82,140

518,0xffffffffc0400000,91,82,151

519,0xffffffffc0600000,91,82,141

```

environment: ubuntu 22.04.4 live-usb, 5700G, b550i aorus pro ax latest bios