[em-bee]

how/where do you network when you live in a remote location?

the main problem is that making new connections takes a long time and consistency meeting people over and over again before you any friendship takes hold.

i now try to network on online events, but that is exhausting and i feel torn between working on my current contract, searching and applying for jobs/projects and joining events. it's like i don't know where to focus because it feels like there is no progress an any of those activities. add taking care of family to that and it soon becomes overwhelming

[kmoser]

Try websites (I would say "social media" but that has a negative stigma) where people in your field congregate. You don't have to do it to the point of exhaustion; just dip you feet in the stream once in a while to gauge the temperature. Eventually you'll find someone or something to talk about. Heck, find a channel/board/area/whatever dedicated to just random chat, and start up a conversation about something you're passionate about.

Building a network takes time, and there's no telling when it will pay off. It might be tomorrow, next week, next month, or next year. But at the end of the day, people will keep you on their radar if they sense that you're at least one of the following: reliable, smart, good at communicating. If you manage to get two out of three you're way ahead of most people.

[em-bee]

(this post may come across like a rant, but it's not meant to be. rather i am writing down my thought process as i analyse this problem, so it's more of a stream of consciousness while i try to grapple the subject)

you mean like hackernews? i have been active here for years without it leading to any kind of notable connection. i have been active on other sites before that (like slashdot, stackoverflow, linux user groups, programming languages). of all these, linkedin seems the most useful although i have not been actively participating there, because it sends me alerts when someone of my connections is hiring. maybe i should become active there to get noticed. but at least here on HN i feel not many would support that idea.

i also went to tech conferences. even organized some. but all this activity has only led to fleeting connections. nothing lasting. and nothing that led to work offers in the past 15 years. i didn't participate for the sake of finding jobs, but i was left with the impression that if i wanted to find jobs then this would not be the way.

the only time this was working was when i was still a student and i was able to actively participate in a programming language community while working on volunteer projects in that language. but the community was to small, and eventually opportunities dried out. and once i had family i just could not keep up the activity. i don't have time for side projects any more. any programming related activity has to come out of my work time now. but helping others with programming problems does not count as work, so the moment i have a full time job i have to drop out. in other words, the effort i put in in order for it to pay off is more than i can afford.

and i don't have the impression that anyone has kept me on their radar. but likewise neither have i kept anyone i met on my radar. i believe that my HN history can establish that i am at least good at communicating, and maybe reasonably smart (reliability is harder to show i suppose), so i don't think that should be my problem.

and then there is the question of which community to participate in. there are so many to choose from. python, javascript, django, angular, php, laravel, you name it. i don't want to be stuck with one particular tech stack. i want to try new things, learn new frameworks and tools. from the job offers i have seen, i should learn go and react. but how much effort will i have to put in before that will land me a job? it feels like it's going to be more than i can afford without neglecting my other obligations.

in short, i feel torn, because i don't know where i should put the effort. i pick one, and as long as there is no success i keep having the fear that i am doing it wrong. how long do you keep that up before trying something else? it's like the problem of every startup. when do you decide that your startup failed? actually, that's easier to answer. when the startup is not profitable and i have run out of money. so when i am out of a job and i don't find a new one in my network, does that mean my networking efforts have failed and i should try networking elsewhere?

trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy. it is something you do on the side, while you have a job, for the future, as a low priority activity. but that is what makes networking so difficult, and why some here feel they are not good at it. it's not because they are bad at communicating, something i expect that book recommendation would be able to help with, but because for a low priority activity the effort is to much, especially for introverts.

[kmoser]

> you mean like hackernews? i have been active here for years without it leading to any kind of notable connection.

Do you read the threads about who's hiring, and post on the threads asking for who's looking for work?

> so when i am out of a job and i don't find a new one in my network, does that mean my networking efforts have failed and i should try networking elsewhere?

Do you mean this as hyperbole? In any case, there is no single answer because it depends on many factors. If you think abandoning every bit of your network, even if it has led to few if any connections, is the right solution, then sure, go ahead. But that sounds like an extreme response, and probably not as wise as redoubling your existing efforts.

> trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy.

Why not? If you need work, and connections are known to help get work, I'd argue building a network is exactly what you should be doing. This applies whether you're working or not (although if you're not currently working, doesn't that give you more time to network?).

As to whether you have time, or where to focus your efforts, that's a different issue. Because you'll never know where that next connection or job lead may come from, there's no right or wrong answer to how much time you "should" be spending networking or where you should be spending it.

Certainly, LinkedIn is very job-oriented, so that might be a good place to continue to make connections and communicate with them, in whatever way and at whatever frequency works for you. Yes, doing this requires effort, but nobody is saying you should do it to the point where other parts of your life suffer.

At the end of the day, networking, like anything else, should be at least somewhat enjoyable. If you're not comfortable in person, do it online. If you can't find an online forum where you feel comfortable, make your own (although it's pretty clear you're comfortable here on HN since you've stuck around for so long).

If the way you're networking now is not enjoyable, I'd urge you to find a way that is. These days there is no shortage of ways to connect with people in ways that anybody but the most communication-adverse would find acceptable.

[em-bee]

so when i am out of a job and i don't find a new one in my network, does that mean my networking efforts have failed and i should try networking elsewhere?

> abandoning every bit of your network [...] sounds like an extreme response, and probably not as wise as redoubling your existing efforts

i didn't mean abandoning the network i have, but abandoning my current attempts to build a network and trying different ways to build a network instead.

what i am trying to say is that whatever i have been trying to build a network has not lead to any meaningful connections. and what few connections i have been able to make, none have been helpful in finding work. so those connections are either not the right ones, or i am not connected well enough (connections don't know me well enough) or i simply do not have enough of them.

i have no idea how to measure that. how does a healthy network look like? are the 300 people i am connected to on linkedin but never talk to, and most of whom i barely know, enough? do i need to engage them more? or should i connect to more people instead? should i try to connect to different kinds of people? what level of friendship does it take for a connection to be helpful?

i have been doing this for more than two decades, and in that time a single job or client was the result of a referral from people i knew, one came directly from someone i have known years earlier, and a few early on came from being a member in a small community. but since then nothing. every other job was hustle and applying to open positions.

don't you think that after more than a decade of trying without success, i shouldn't question the approach? how long should i try doubling down? another 10 years?

> trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy.

Why not? If you need work, and connections are known to help get work, I'd argue building a network is exactly what you should be doing.

because building a connection to someone takes longer than the time i can afford to be out of work. i am not suggesting that i should stop with networking, but that spending more time on networking is not going to make enough of a difference when i need a job right away. i am in the lucky position that i saved enough money to actually be able to afford to be out of work for more than a few months. but even that money will run out if i don't find work eventually.

you'll never know where that next connection or job lead may come from

well if past performance is any indication, then it is not coming from my networking efforts.

connections are known to help get work

but my connections are not getting me any work. something must be wrong with my network or with my efforts at networking. but i can't figure out what that is. can you see why i am confused?

Certainly, LinkedIn is very job-oriented, so that might be a good place

you are in a minority with that opinion. most comments on HN that i have seen over the years suggest that linkedin is useless. of course there may be survivorship bias there. i wager most of those people are not even trying to use linkedin. and neither was i. so that would be one of the things for me to change.

These days there is no shortage of ways to connect with people in ways that anybody but the most communication-adverse would find acceptable.

i'd like to dispute that statement. i can't think of more than half a dozen ways. maybe a dozen, but then half of those are out of my reach.

to be more practical, let's make an actual list. if you can think of any other ways, please add to the list:

in person:

    1: go to tech and networking events and meetups. (only possible if you live in a big city with an active community).
    2: go to conferences. (requires time and money)
    3: speak at conferences (takes advanced preparation time as well as money)

online:

    4: join online networking events. (there are some, but i feel they are hard to find. most online events are talks/workshops without any opportunity for the audience to connect to each other) 
    5: give talks at online conferences or participate in podcasts. (takes advanced preparation time)
    6: participate in online communities/forums/mailinglists. (seems to work better in small communities. requires effort to help others in order to stand out as knowledgeable and helpful. standing out on HN or stackoverflow is difficult. not sure about linkedin)
    7: write a blog (takes a very long time to build up an audience)

that's all that i can think of. i have tried all of those at some point. 1, 2 and 3 are out of reach for me right now. i am not having any success with 6 or 7, but i haven't tried linkedin yet. and i want to revisit 4 and possibly 5.

btw: i tried in person networking events when i had the opportunity. after a few years doing that in beijing i felt i was getting somewhere, and then we had to move. likewise in vienna, but there i felt that i was getting somewhere after a few months. but it took a lot of effort. i went out at least 2, sometimes 3 or 4 times a week. very taxing on my family. generally, i don't think more than once or twice a week is advisable if you want to keep your wife happy. if you are alone of course then have at it.

[memen]

You say none of your activities got you a job offer, but did you get anyone else a job offer or did you create/pointed out opportunities for others? Maybe trying to do that helps in finding ways to be on the receiving end of such opportunities.

[em-bee]

i think i would pass on such opportunities if i came across any. heck, i even created chat groups to help people share and find jobs (with hundreds of participants) but i can't remember the last time that i was able to pass on an opportunity directly. well, actually, just last week a friend contacted me about a job that didn't fit me, but i can't think of anyone i know that i could pass it on to.