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by racional 725 days ago
At any given time, he was doing what was prudent for his country

By which you must mean his issuing the Act of Restoration of the Ukrainian State, which famously states:

  3. The newly formed Ukrainian state will work closely with the National-Socialist Greater Germany, under the leadership of its leader Adolf Hitler which is forming a new order in Europe and the world and is helping the Ukrainian People to free itself from Moscovite occupation.
1 comments

Yes, absolutely, the Soviet Union and its Secret Police were an active threat to Ukrainians every day. Adolf Hitler was not.

Though Bandera did work with the Nazis, he later worked against them. They weren't ideologically into Nazism.

Even Karaite Jews in Ukraine joined SS regiments at some points. They didn't love Hitler, everyone knew Hitler was a stinker. They were just more immediately concerned with the immediate threat of forced starvation or torture in a gulag.

They weren't ideologically into Nazism.

The point is -- he was a willing collaborator. And you went out of your way to describe his actions as "at any given time, prudent for his country".

Yes. It was prudent to do anything to save Ukraine. Absolutely. If you love your country you'd deal with the devil himself to save it from what Russia was doing.

10 million people died in Genrikh Yagoda's torture chambers. Another 5 million starved to death in the holodomor.

Hitler was bad, sure, but only a third as bad as the Bolsheviks. And about half of those 15 million deaths happened in Ukraine, and Bandera's fiduciary duty was to fellow Ukrainians, not to some foreign nation. If you had to pick a side (and Bandera did) it was best to go with Hitler.

10 million people died in Genrikh Yagoda's torture chambers.

These are some wildly inflated numbers you're posting here. Total estimates for the number of persons killed in pre-war political repressions in the USSR top out at 1 million or so. I'm not sure what Ukraine's exact number is, but (in asserting that it was "about half" of 10M) you're easily inflating the true number by a factor of at least 10x here. Likely closer to 20x.

Why are you doing this?

Wikipedia cites the Holodomor as 5 million. That was mostly in East Ukraine. That's most of the half. The other 2.5 million were from gulags.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet...

There were 20 million+ excess deaths, of which 10 million are commonly attributed to Yagoda:

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

Maybe you disagree with these numbers, but they're the ones I know of.

Wikipedia cites the Holodomor

You cited, as an encyclopedic fact, 10M as having perished specifically "Yagoda's torture chambers" per your words, which can only refer to NKVD (or otherwise "political") persecutions -- not the various deportations en masse or the Holodomor. The WP page you cited confirms upper bound for the former set of excess fatalaties (i.e. the one that you were explicitly referencing) at 770k -- which we shall charitably round up to 1M for the sake of "civility" here -- for the entire USSR during the pre-war era.

Far short of the 10M figure you are introducing for whatever imaginitive and creative purposes.

Again: 10M in this category -- the number who perished "Yagoda's torture chambers" throughout the USSR before the start of the war; and "about half" being in Ukraine; or around 5M, is the number you put forth -- apparently for the nifty rhetorical effect you thought it might bring.

Whereas the historical consensus for this category is <400k.

It was prudent to do anything to save Ukraine.

Including allowing the Germans to run the Final Solution on your territory.

And please, don't tell us he didn't know what was in store for Ukraine's Jewish population. By the late 1930s, everyone knew what was up.

You're really very naive with these justifications you're making here. Like Bandera himself.