[ossobuco]

> "Slava Ukraini" should not be a political or offensive phrase, unless you are a genocidal maniac supporting Putin's mass murder.

Ask the poles what do they think of it. Are they all "genocidal maniacs supporting Putin's mass murder"?

Bandera and his OUN carried out massacres and ethnic cleansing of a hundred thousand Poles, plus we don't know how many Jews. It was the slogan of the OUN so yes it is a highly offensive phrase especially if you are Pole or Jew.

I couldn't care less if modern Ukraine adopted it as a national slogan. If Germany decided to adopt "Sieg Heil" as a national slogan, that would still make think of Hitler every time I hear it even though Germany is now a democracy.

> Lemkos then and now generally had a pretty high opinion of Bandera

Some Germans still have a pretty high opinion of Hitler, some Italians of Mussolini. That doesn't make up for their crimes.

> > a liberal attitude like yours.

You happily partake in Xenon, ether and what not, I generally call this behavior that of a junkie, liberal was my way of being polite.

[rabite]

The phrase "Slava Ukraini" predates the OUN by actual decades. There are plenty of people in Ukraine, particularly East Ukraine, that have personal objections to the mythos of Bandera as a national hero that still use the phrase, as it was coined in the Ukrainian War of Independence. Comparing it to "Sieg Heil" is utterly disingenuous. Regardless, your summary of Bandera and the OUN is delusionally ethnocentric and clearly biased against Ukraine.

> I generally call this behavior that of a junkie

and most people that voted in favor of prohibition would say that everyone that drinks alcohol must be a public drunkard, I guess. Usage of ether is a tradition on par with drinking in at least one part of the world. It is a little more dangerous, given ether's excessive flammability and low flash point, but inhaling some ether does not make anyone a junkie. America doesn't have a tradition of ether at all, and it is the only country where there are shambling masses of xylazine/fentanyl zombies defecating in the streets. Maybe you could all use a little more traditional ether consumption.

[ossobuco]

> The phrase "Slava Ukraini" predates the OUN by actual decades

> Comparing it to "Sieg Heil" is utterly disingenuous.

LOL I'll introduce you to the fact that Sieg Heil originated in Germany around the 1900, way before the nazis got the power. The roman salute was used by the Roman empire, the earliest known use of the swastika dates the 4th centure BCE. Yet none of this symbols/gestures are accepted today, because the nazis spoiled them for everyone.

> Regardless, your summary of Bandera and the OUN is selfish and ethnocentric.

Nice hand-wavy way to dismiss hundreds of thousands of murders.

[racional]

Sieg Heil originated in Germany around the 1900, etc

A broken analogy. The difference lies in the fact that these symbols were utterly obscure to German public before the Nazis introduced them in the early 1920s; though they had previous incarnations, in essence the Nazis reinvented them. In fact, they were so successful at it that most people are surprised to learn that these symbols had prior origins.

The situation with "Slava Ukraini" is entirely different. It first appeared in a poem of Shevchenko in 1840, and gained widespread traction during the War of Independence. It was then co-opted by the OUN, but the point is, by that time it had its own "legs" as a slogan rooted in Ukrainian national consciousness, completely independent of Bandera and his program.

And used today, it has no fascist connotations, and does not indicate support for Bandera or the OUN. That's just a simple fact. You obviously want the slogan to mean something different in the current context -- but we're talking about a country of 44 million people here, and if you have any interaction at all with this society, it's perfectly obvious and clear what they mean by it. I take their word over yours.

The Poles have long gotten over all this history too, of course. They know what happened in those years, but they know that what's happening in the current day is infinitely more important. They know there's a fascist aggressor to the East which threatens their survival as a people, and it isn't Ukraine.

Your attempts to conflate the slogan with a meaning it simply doesn't have are disingenuous. You're clearly not interested in what's historically accurate, or what describes the feelings and intents of people who use slogans like "Slava Ukraini" today.

You're only interested in this stuff as scare imagery -- as a way to push people's buttons.

[ossobuco]

> And used today, it has no fascist connotations, and does not indicate support for Bandera or the OUN. That's just a simple fact. You obviously want the slogan to mean something different in the current context -- but we're talking about a country of 44 million people here, and if you have any interaction at all with this society, it's perfectly obvious and clear what they mean by it. I take their word over yours.

That's BS. Do some research, check how many marches like this one[0] (clearly mimicking nazis and glorifying Bandera) there are in Ukraine. Check the countless pictures and videos showing elements of the AFU wearing nazi symbology. Check what is the role of fascist militias like Azov and neo-nazi parties like Svoboda in the 2014's Maidan.

What evidence do you have to support that symbology taken straight from Bandera period has no relationship with him?

> The Poles have long gotten over all this history too, of course. They know what happened in those years, but they know that what's happening in the current day is infinitely more important. They know there's a fascist aggressor to the East which threatens their survival as a people, and it isn't Ukraine.

That's bullshit as well, and you know it. To this day Poland comdemns Ukraine's commeration of Bandera & co.[1] That's a constant source of friction between the two countries, which are only united at the moment because of Russia.

The real problem with Ukraine as a nation is that the only national cultural identity they could find is rooted in collaborationism with the nazis, ethnical extermination and hatred for the URSS. Not a great base to start from.

> You're only interested in this stuff as scare imagery -- as a way to push people's buttons.

All I'm interested in is to see an end to the constant glorification of nazism.

- [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE

- [1]: https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/01/02/poland-condemns-ukrai...

[racional]

> And used today

In the mainstream, I obviously meant.

Check in on any American Nazi rally from the 1930s to the present day (the photos are all over the place); you'll see the Stars and Stripes displayed very prominently right along Swastika flags. Does that mean the former is, therefore, a fascist symbol?

Check what is the role of fascist militias like Azov in the 2014's Maidan.

Azov did not exist at the time of Maidan.

This is the kind of nonsense world you create for yourself by obsessively reading polemics, and pulling "research" from echo-chamber news sources. Rather than bothering to find out what Ukrainians are actually like, as a people.

The real problem with Ukraine as a nation is ...

The irony here is that you claim to be concerned about the dangers of Nazism. But then almost in the same breath, you dive head-first into weird tribalist diatribes like this.

[ossobuco]

> Azov did not exist at the time of Maidan.

Yes Azov was founded right after, which tells you already there is some correlation with the Maidan. But do you think Azov was founded by a bunch of newborns, or maybe by the same militarly trained people who participated in the Maidan?

> The irony here is that you claim to be concerned about the dangers of Nazism. But then almost in the same breath, you dive head-first into weird tribalist diatribes like this.

So since you have nothing to deny the fact that Ukraine's identity is deeply rooted in nazism and violence, you resort to defining what I say as "weird tribalist diatribes", which is nonsense.