[vundercind]

A lot of things in the US would change for the better if we installed a new government for ourselves using the techniques we have when we assist or replace foreign governments.

There’s a ton of stuff we have and do, including some fundamental stuff (our system of voting, for one) that’s known to be really bad compared to the “state of the art”. But, in part because of some of those bad elements, we only ever get to apply better solutions for others, never ourselves.

[0x5f3759df-i]

Yep, there’s a reason we didn’t give Germany and Japan our “exceptional” electoral college system.

Tech debt exists in constitutional law as well.

[Dalewyn]

The Electoral College exists as a compromise regarding two needs:

* The need to keep the Executive and Legislative Branches separate.

* The need to represent States in a manner they already agree with, for sake of brevity.

Thus the Electoral College: Composed in the same way as Congress is (plus pretending D.C. is a state) whose sole task is electing the head of the Executive Branch as representatives of the States thereof.

Japan (and Germany? I don't know enough about German politics) is based on the UK's Westminster system, which has its own pros and cons and isn't necessarily better.

[vundercind]

The idea of choosing wise locals to go judge the candidates and choose on our behalf (since a general election for president is kinda crazy—they were right about that) fell apart pretty much instantly when we started actually holding elections, making the institution all but pointless except for presenting opportunities to attack our democracy with weird procedural shit because it’s more complicated than it needs to be (see, ahem, certain recent events).

We don’t need the College to weight the vote toward states without people in them, if that’s what we want to do. Even if we accept that that’s a good goal, the College is not a good way to do it.

[Dalewyn]

The thing is it's not the citizens of a State choosing the POTUS, it's the citizens of a State choosing which candidate their State will choose for POTUS.

Remember, the US is a federation of sovereign States and POTUS as Chief Executive of the Federal government represents and is chosen by the States thereof. Each State represents its citizens respectively.

The reason the College gives more weight to less populous States is, again, the need to represent States at the federal level in a way they already agree with but separated from the Legislature. So each State gets 2 Electors plus at least 1 Elector according to their population, representing the Senators and Representatives they would have in Congress. Remember that the Senate gives equal representation to all States regardless of population; California and Rhode Island each have the same representation in the Senate.

Part of the reason Japan doesn't have an Electoral College is because they aren't as concerned about separating the Executive and Legislative Branches and they aren't a federation of sovereign States.

[comte7092]

> Remember, the US is a federation of sovereign States and POTUS as Chief Executive of the Federal government represents and is chosen by the States thereof. Each State represents its citizens respectively.

This isn’t even accurate from the perspective of 1789. The articles of confederation created a model akin to what you’ve outlined. The constitution created a quasi blend of popular representation and state level representation in the federal government as a result of several different compromises in order to form a stable national government.

That isn’t how anything effectively works today though. The federal government has undergone numerous reforms both explicitly within the constitution and implicitly without any formal constitutional changes. These include the direct election of senators, income taxes, etc but also the effective binding of presidential electors to the outcome of the popular vote within a state.

Americans today don’t think of themselves as citizens of the state of California, they think of themselves as Americans solely, the former concept being absolutely foreign and strange to them.

Finally, the EC gives very little benefit to small states. The relative impact is consistently overstated. The only place that small state over representation effectively exists is in the senate.

[Dalewyn]

>This isn’t even accurate from the perspective of 1789. The articles of confederation created a model akin to what you’ve outlined. The constitution created a quasi blend of popular representation and state level representation in the federal government as a result of several different compromises in order to form a stable national government.

The Constitution vests all powers with the people, and certain powers are delegated to States at the pleasure of the people. The States in turn delegate certain powers to the Federal government at the pleasure of the States.

While it certainly looks the other way, the hierarchy of political power in America has always been People > States > Federal.

The Constitution also mandates separations of power between the three branches of government, unlike say the Westminster system where the Legislative branch elects the Chief Executive at their pleasure.

>That isn’t how anything effectively works today though. The federal government has undergone numerous reforms both explicitly within the constitution and implicitly without any formal constitutional changes. These include the direct election of senators, income taxes, etc but also the effective binding of presidential electors to the outcome of the popular vote within a state.

Indeed, and States Rights vs. Federal Powers continues to remain a hot topic because both sides want more power.

Incidentally, the legal requirement for electors to follow the election result of their State is decided by each State. Most States have this law, but some do not. The Constitution explicitly gives the States this authority, not the Federal government.

>Americans today don’t think of themselves as citizens of the state of California, they think of themselves as Americans solely, the former concept being absolutely foreign and strange to them.

Is it? There are memes about Californians and Floridians, not to mention stereotypes of New Yorkers and Texans among others and otherwise simple pride in your home state (particularly prevalent among servicemen and veterans).

The National Guards of each State are also rooted in the concept that each State is sovereign and will have a military force legally independent from the Federal military force.

>Finally, the EC gives very little benefit to small states. The relative impact is consistently overstated. The only place that small state over representation effectively exists is in the senate.

The benefit to smaller States in the EC is nearly if not perfectly identical to that in Congress because apportionments are deliberately identical.

[vundercind]

The actual electors are basically pointless though. You can assign the electoral votes however the states decide to (some split it, et c) and that’s that. The rest is risky pageantry (and not even an entertaining sort!) and has been very nearly since day 1. The human electors have never really functioned like they were supposed to.

[Dalewyn]

I agree that the electors being actual people are mostly an artifact of a bygone era at this point. It's even illegal in most States for an elector to vote contrary to what the State's citizens decided.

That being said though, Congress still has authority to act as a failsafe in the event the College deadlocks and Congressmen are most definitely actual people, so maybe there is some obscure value left in Electors likewise being actual people.

In the interests of Chesterton's Fence and Not Fixing What Ain't Broke(tm), so long as the human nature doesn't become a significant problem it's probably not worth checking out the consequences of changing things around.

[0x5f3759df-i]

You’re just making my point, it was a compromise for the time that no sane person would include in a country or constitution started from scratch today. There’s a reason no other country on earth uses such a ridiculous system. It is just tech debt we have to live with.

[comte7092]

The “need” for the EC is all post hoc rationalization at this point. It was an expedient political compromise made in an environment that is wholly different than the one we live in today.

The only reason we maintain it now is because it is both too hard to change and also perceived (correctly or incorrectly) to give an advantage to one of the two major parties in our political system, which effectively kills their support.

[supertrope]

>replace foreign government

Like a CIA sponsored military coup? Or aerial bombing?

[vundercind]

The “friendlier” nation-building stuff, from being invited to help (as in the original example) to installing new states in countries we’ve conquered (you see now why the quotes on “friendlier”).

Less so the coups. Usually with those we just want some degree of fealty or alignment. Dictators are easier to predict and control in that way, and one fuck of a lot cheaper to install than a functioning democracy.

[BizarroLand]

From what I gather in the Federalist Society Papers, the original intent was that we would reinvent our country every 25 years or so, draft a new constitution and incorporate all of the changes that we needed to continue to function with the precept of being a great society, "Of the people, by the people, for the people".

However, requiring 100% of states to affirm the new constitution was difficult enough in 1776 when there were only 13 states and they all had a common enemy to band together against.

Doing that now would probably be impossible or require antilogic so extreme no human could read it without their ears bleeding from the brain hemorrhage.

[dragonwriter]

> From what I gather in the Federalist Society Papers, the original intent was that we would reinvent our country every 25 years or so

I think you are confusing in name the Federalist Papers with the modern and, except in attempt to steal glory, unrelated Federalist Society, and confusing in substance the Federalist Papers with a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to John Adams in which he expressed the conclusion that all laws (incl. Cobstitutions) must, based on then-current actuarial data, sunset in approximately that timeframe to avoid the living being ruled over by the dead.

[BizarroLand]

You're probably right. I was quoting from memory and memory is unreliable. Thanks for the clarification!

[eszed]

Just to be pedantic: constitutional amendments, in the USA, require a maximum of 75% of the states to agree. Minimally 66.6% (repeating, of course) of them to call a constitutional convention, and ratify the results.

None of that challenges your important points about the intentions of the founders, nor the difficulties upon which their project has run around.