[celdon25]

They don't have Syntax Tree analysis yet but I hear it will be released soon

Notice a common theme here? Literally zero ways to browse C# syntax trees available on the Mac. Nothing in the cloud either from what I could find. Roslyn was open-sourced in April 2014, which was 122 months ago. (edit: Another commenter pointed out that there is in fact a new VS Code extension that can do this, released Aug 2023)

By the way, you can't get autocomplete either while interactively debugging C# outside of Windows. The debugger is proprietary. Maybe there's a way, but I haven't found one.

[tablloyd]

Autocomplete works fine interactively debugging on MacOS with JetBrains rider.

Syntax trees can be browsed on https://sharplab.io/ or again via Rider and I'm sure there are some other tools that I'm not aware of.

The Roslyn sdk is part of .NET (cross platform) these days so anyone can use it to build a visualiser should they wish to.

[szundi]

Where would .NET developers be without the Java based IDE, the irony

[high_na_euv]

Weird take

Where CPP devs would be without C# based IDE?

Where all devs would be without js/ts based vscode?

[SeriousM]

Visual Studio exists long before jetbrains and VSCode is on elecron. I would say java ide is also an essential thing but not the thing that made everything possible.

[pjmlp]

With these kind of remarks, the point being that .NET team isn't serious enough for having cross-platform GUI tooling that would enable a proper cross-platform version of Visual Studio.

Visual Studio for Mac (nee Mono Develop), could have been it, instead they decided to kill it, and focus on VSCode, which has already been communicated a couple of times, C# Dev Kit will never cover all use cases of VS proper, and it is also under the same license anyway.

So MAUI will never support GNU/Linux, was also not used in VS4Mac due to its Catalist underpinnings, Forms and WPF will stay Windows forever, MS will never used Uno or Avalonia, thus it leaves a Java IDE platform and Electron for their cross-platform tooling.

All, because regardless of what the .NET team does, upper management still wants to use .NET to drive Visual Studio and Windows licenses.

[celdon25]

Jetbrains IDEs aren't free (and cost many times more than what is fair for the quality of the product they are known to ship), and SharpLab only has a partial implementation of it: https://github.com/ashmind/SharpLab/issues/616

> The Roslyn sdk is part of .NET (cross platform) these days so anyone can use it to build a visualiser should they wish to.

Of course, but for most people that need this, they may just be trying to figure out how to do something as simple as adding an analyzer rule to a project, and don't have the luxury to be able to delay that work to spend weeks cobbling together a visualizer using an SDK that they may only have barely any knowledge with.

There are certain things that don't inspire the kind of passion it takes for volunteers to do this, and therefore it's up to those who have a financial motive to do so. Whether it be the rent-seekers at JetBrains, or someone other than Microsoft and doesn't have an incentive to make a competing OS more viable for developers. Without the .NET foundation's governance model and funding (regardless of who funded it), it would have never made it this far. See: https://github.com/dotnet/vscode-csharp/issues/5276

[paulirwin]

> Whether it be the rent-seekers at JetBrains

This is a gratuitously negative comment that is unfair and uses an incorrect metaphor. Rent-seeking is trying to charge for something without providing any new value, usually from something already established as free. I don't believe Rider was ever available for free, but even if it was, they certainly have improved it with loads of new value since then. You're welcome to your opinion (that I don't share) that their IDEs are not worth the cost, but you're also free to not buy them. That's not rent-seeking, it's the free market.

I personally am a big fan of Rider and the JetBrains Toolbox suite, and I get several times more value out of my subscription than it costs. YMMV.

[Jenk]

My full toolbox sub costs less than either my spotify or netflix subs do. Move along.

[vunderba]

Oh for crying out loud, you could not have chosen a worst company to go after for the accusation of "rent seeker."

Jetbrains has offered perpetual fallback licenses for all of their products for years now. This means that as long as you don't need any of the new updates, you can purchase it for a one time fee (basically the equivalent of a single year's license) and then you own it.

As far as their products not being worth what they charge, I pay about $180 per year (15$ / month) for the entire jetbrains library and consistently use CLion (for C and C++), Datagrip (postgres, mongo), Data rider (c#), Web storm (typescript), Phpstorm, and Pycharm. Considering these are the tools of my trade, that's more than a fair asking price.

They've also been incredibly responsive, especially considering the massive upheavals within the company as a result of the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. Whenever I've filed an issue on youtrack, it usually gets a response, and often a bug ticket that's handled within a few version iterations later at most.

[neonsunset]

Rider.

Also, autocomplete works in VS Code debug tab just fine?

Please stop trying to make the windows point.

[celdon25]

What are you talking about? This is well documented.

https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/30065

https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/48810

https://github.com/dotnet/vscode-csharp/issues/1609

https://github.com/dotnet/vscode-csharp/issues/299

https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-dotnettools/issues/573

https://github.com/dotnet/vscode-csharp/issues/5276#issuecom...

https://isdotnetopen.com/

A Rider license costs $419 per year per seat and Jetbrains has a poor quality record by today's standards, and if you are a serious developer that has to use one of their products, you'll find yourself at the mercy of numerous YouTrack tickets that have been open for years. They have a habit of shipping integrations that are only partially working, and then calling it a day (or the better part of a decade).

By the way, Rider may have been cheaper if not for the above moves by Microsoft: https://github.com/dotnet/core/issues/505

[neonsunset]

For organizations it is, for users it's $149 annually and then cheaper: https://www.jetbrains.com/rider/buy/?section=personal&billin... It is also free for OSS development, I maintain a couple of .NET libraries and applied for JetBrains free OSS license and they approved it within a week or so. On debugger - Rider uses its own debugger, they do not license it.

Also, please do not link posts from Miguel De Icaza when he isn't in a good mood. He, unfortunately, does not provide constructive and/or unbiased criticism on .NET after moving out to Swift.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make but current day support for C# on macOS and Linux is very good. It is even in a better shape than many other languages that have been platform-agnostic from the start, yet still don't have such good debugger, static analysis and profiler options.

[paulirwin]

And for organizations, it's only $419 for the first year. It's $251/yr from 3+ years on.

It should be noted that $419/year is $35/mo, which is still $10/mo cheaper than the Visual Studio 2022 Professional monthly subscription at $45/mo. $21/mo at 3+ years is less than half.

[celdon25]

Not bad faith, these are issues I've been affected by first-hand. And when I have a technical issue I fix it by getting to the root cause, not becoming a vassal to JetBrains.

[kinjba11]

I pay $173 per year for JetBrain's 'All Products Pack'. Considering the salary I make as a software engineer, and the quality of the tools JetBrains provides, this is a great investment. Rider works flawlessly for me, far better than VS.

As a side, it always strikes me as ironic that software developers are paid extremely well and yet hesitate to pay even a modest fee for the tools that enable them to do their job. Most "free" tools are not free - someone was paid to create them. IMO whether engineers are on a stable payroll is a differentiating aspect to why some tools succeed and become widely used and some don't. In the case of dev tools, our tech corporatocracy MAMA (Microsoft, Apple, Meta, Alphabet) pay engineers to make products like VS Code, then release for free. This is for eyeballs of course, because charging for the tools would get them nothing in comparison to their main platform revenue streams, which benefit hugely from the network effect.

[jayd16]

Your jetbrains hatred is so foreign to me. I think Rider is great and well worth the license.

[phito]

> Literally zero ways to browse C# syntax trees available on the Mac.

Literally zero? I can count 2 from the top of my head.

[NetPad]

NetPad's latest release (v0.7.2) now includes a Syntax Tree visualizer.

[3836293648]

Or anything with treesitter support?