Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by wayoverthecloud 726 days ago
Oh spirituality. The only thing that I spent years of life trying to understand and ended up realizing that there's nothing to understand. It sounds corny and cliche but there's no other way I can put it.

I have/had meditated for almost 5 years of my life for almost 2 hours a day(unless I am traveling/or sick etc), so I think I am experienced enough to help beginner meditators. Also being from a Sanskrit-derived-language speaking country, I can read Pali and Sanskrit texts without translation.(Being from a SA country doesn't mean anyone can do that obviously. My family was more religious than others I guess). I am not beating my own drums but I have to put in some credibility to be taken seriously on the Internet. I really have no other credibility to put forward than this so please take my advice with a grain of salt because I am not an enlightened man like the religious scripts depict.

If you are a beginner, forget Jhanas and these tricks. They are just there to confuse you more. The wanting of stages of Jhanas are actually a hindrance. Buddha has warned about it. But his warning has been treated like a footnote. But in modern context, the warning should be the introduction. Because people can rarely deal with any discomfort these days. They've read the Jhanas, they want it now. I am almost 45% sure we will see a AI for Jhanas in the next 50 years.

Anyways, here's my advice for beginners:

When you start meditation, sooner or later, maybe even after a day or two, you'll eventually feel a state of peace. It is bound to happen, you will just have to take words of countless meditation literature and gurus and see for yourself. And the peace will be short-lived. Then, you will want to extend this peace. You've read about the Jhanas, the bliss, the peace, the oneness, and all. But it's not working for you right? Because you have been fooled again.

Previously, you were chasing for drugs/media/TikTok/girls/whatever or some other forms of pleasure/happiness and now you are chasing for the bliss, the peace, whatever the texts say or you've been told. It's the same thing. You are still chasing, you are still desiring. The object of desire is "Jhanas" now but it's still a desire and in desiring there is going to be mental conflict and hopelessness and feeling of losing because obviously you desire only the things you don't have.

The best advice I would give to a beginner meditator, is to be interested. Become interested in the process of meditation, forget the happiness, the results. Oh spoiler alert, you will actually feel like you are being more sadder after you started meditating. You will feel like you are noticing more problems, more issues with the society/beings etc. You aren't becoming sadder or the world is not sadder, you are noticing the sadness that was always there. Let it ride, enjoy the process. Don't treat meditation like a chore like I did. Be really interested. You have to be interested because it's a lifetime work. Your brain is neuroplastic so it's been addicted to patterns and habits from your birth to now. Don't expect to change them in a single meditation session. It's okay to meditate for 5 minutes a day and 2 hours the next day or miss it for weeks. Do it when you feel like it and when you are genuinely interested and curious, you'll just come back to it more and more without needing to force yourself to discipline and hate the word "meditation" in the process. Unless you are genuinely interested you will never surrender to meditation and unless you let go, you will never allow "Jhanas" to appear, because remember everything appears in emptiness.

6 comments

I've tried to start meditating a couple of times in my life but every time after a couple of days instead of being introduced to gradual calm/bliss/joy/whatever I get met with an existential dread, sadness, anxiety, melancholy etc. I guess am naturally predisposed to those as well, much more than 'happy' feelings. I had to then take a week or even more to recover. I feel like you need to have your shit together so to speak before you try meditating or it might uncover some suppressed trauma or whatever it is. I must say though I am way more 'aware' of my body and emotions more than before, but the problem is they might not be pleasant. It is okay when the feeling is transitory but an existential dread which lasts for days or weeks feels impossible to shake off, it consumes your whole life. One day I hope to be able to swing the pendulum in the other way.
I believe that half of meditation is letting your self dredge up all the nasty stuff and watching it happen, the other half is cultivating an outlook that's okay with or even happy with those things coming up. It's literally practice, for remaining stable when bad things happen "off the mat", and to be able to narrow in and concentrate on the grain of calm/bliss/joy in every moment. These elevated jhana states can be a healthy part of that, but they take work to get to.

if you're going to actually try to do it and not just try to McMindfulness your way out, it's dangerous to go in to this unprepared, IMO. early in my meditation experience I went a bit too deep on this just by practicing insight a few hours a day on one of the apps and was anxious and emotionally unbalanced for months.

Finding a meditation teacher or practice community may help, too, it continues to help for me, but it's one of those things you gotta be ready to keep going back to

To share my own experience, I first tried meditating seriously in the context of a 9-day retreat and the first 4-5 days were as you described. Anxiety, melancholy, boredom, frustration, then a period of emotional catharsis and much more enjoyable meditation after that. I think it really depends on how much shit you're repressing.
You see the issue though with the approach you're advocating?

"Oh spoiler alert, you will actually feel like you are being more sadder after you started meditating.... enjoy the process"

So I'll start to not enjoy myself by becoming sadder, but I just need to enjoy it?

Because the purpose of meditation is not to make you happy, it is to help you understand the Satya/Truth to help you see beyond the Maya/Illusion and lead you towards Moksha/Liberation (from Suffering/Dukkha if you are Buddhist, from Punarjanam/Reincarnation if you are Hindu). Of course, if you don't believe in any of that, then it is useless for you. Truth is supposed to make you sad, otherwise everyone will be looking for it.

Westerners just turn everything into a commercial product, look in this very thread -- some people felt a bit of relaxation and decided that they are now enlightened souls who have figured out the real deal without having to deal with the dirty Brown-skinned spirituality.

When you practice meditation for some months (for some, a few weeks or years), you gain a piercing insight into the nature of reality, and you might find the reality much more darker and sadder than you previously thought.

But meditation will also teach you that these don't matter.

Couple that with the personal cathartic experience of your forcefully subdued gloom, sadness, worries, etc. resurfacing and making you more afraid/anxious. This happens after some days/one-two weeks.

But meditation teaches you to overcome them. After years, your sense of self will cease.

These are not trivial things, so you will do better having a learned, practicing guru and/or solid base in the Philosophy.

The issue isn’t with the approach. The issue is with the limitations of language.

I did a vipassana course a few years ago and have been meditating semi-regularly ever since. I’ve been through a few difficult times with my family since then (not materially, but emotionally). In those difficult times, my most deep traumas were triggered - sadness, rage, frustration, anxiety all came rushing out.

But because of the meditative practices, I had learned to “witness” these emotions rather than be completely consumed by then. In the meditative practices I follow, I’ve learned to completely sense my body and the result is that my attention has moved away from my thoughts (which are the source of most of our suffering) to bodily sensations. These resulted in situations which are something like, “Oh I’m feeling a lot of rage and sadness. My chest is feeling an intense, almost painful sensation. My breathing is heavy and fast.” Whereas normally I’d have thought, “I’M GOING TO RIP THIS F**ERS HEAD OFF!!”.

And guess what, when the power of the emotion is “seen” in this way… I began to enjoy it. Enjoying my sadness and anger.

EDIT: well these days, I realise I’ve been chasing that state ever since :) and now my challenge is to let go. I’ve certainly become a bit rusty since then, but I don’t give myself enough credit for how far I’ve come. The journey never ends! I guess one just takes life as it comes :))

> So I'll start to not enjoy myself by becoming sadder, but I just need to enjoy it?

Yes. I do enjoy sadness. Once you worked your way to enjoy it, it becomes cleansing in itself. It is not inherently unjoyful, it is that you are attributing lack of joy to it.

This is basically what "inner child work" is doing, or "demon feeding", to stay closer to buddhistic practices.

See also, for example, the "8 C's and 5 P's of Internal Family Systems", https://www.therapywithalessio.com/articles/self-in-ifs-ther... You can feel all of them (calm, curious, compassionate, connected, confident etc), AND anything else at the same time (sadness, overwhelm, fear, anger, etc).

> I am almost 45% sure we will see a AI for Jhanas in the next 50 years.

The Atlantic article on this Jhourney company says "according to its founders... the combination of artificial intelligence and EEG recordings of the brain will give novice meditators bliss on demand."

So we're already there! Unless you meant an AI that actually works, in which case I have no idea.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2024/03/jhana...

I love your advice for beginners (last 3 paragraphs of your comment). It definitely rings true that the attainment of desirelessness can become a desire in itself, just another dragon to chase.

I like your comment so much I was tempted to share it with my FB friends. Would you be ok with that? No worries if not. If so, would you like to be mentioned by your username?

Sorry if this is not an appropriate thing to comment here. I would have messaged you privately but HN doesn't seem to provide a way to do that, and I don't see an email address for you. Cheers

That's okay, you can share it :)
This is solid advice. Don't desire anything from the process of meditation. Just do it. Some worldly benefits will arise, and you shouldn’t chase them either.
UG Krishnamurti, is that you?
UG would have bashed the whole idea of meditation. Since I haven't had a calamity yet, I still don't brush aside meditation :)