[roenxi]

One of the interesting insights into society at large is that one of the big divisions of knowledge is into the pots of "benefits others that you know this" and "other". There is a lot of social effort put into spreading political memes (as the easiest example) because that will influence society in a way that is favourable to the meme-er. Ditto a lot of commercially useful skills are spread because it is in everyone's interests that businessmen are competent. Messages of peace, kindness and (ironically) war get a lot of play because they are all helpful in various ways if other people know about them.

Reading up on the jhanas they are clearly a very real, very distinct thing. But they aren't obviously to the benefit of anyone except the practitioner and it is practically impossible to verify if someone has actually experienced them. So they drop out of the conversation pretty quickly unless they are attached to something else (this is a large part of the genius of Buddhism and other religions, attaching good ideas to social rites).

[dnissley]

> they aren't obviously to the benefit of anyone except the practitioner

Most of the people I know who've gotten into jhana really do talk a big game about how it's affected their behavior in the world in ways that obviously benefit others. Being more compassionate, kind, patient, accepting, forgiving, etc.

Personally I don't think I've gotten to jhana, but if nothing else the traits I've cultivated through meditation have allowed me to feel more grateful and loving towards those around me, and that's of simple obvious value to them (as well as me). If jhana means doing that even more reliably, then again I'd call that obviously of value to others and the world at large.

[tgdude]

It certainly changed mine.

The thing that I came to understand after experiencing what I did (I won't call it jhana because I haven't yet found a teacher to ask and I don't want to misspeak) is that our behavior is fundamentally connected to our internal state and emotional needs. These can be as deeply rooted as traumatic experiences or even mild preferences we have. The experience that I had almost feels like an internal sense of nourishment for these needs.

It starts as joy and happiness and settles into this sense of stable and calm contentment that isn't dependent on anything in the "external". You realize and deeply understand that you don't "need" anything to be content. Thoughts just fade in and out and eventually disappear.

After spending some time there I also realized how much effort the mind spends protecting the "model of the world" it's built up over time and how much stress it gets put under when something challenges it. It's hard to describe this in terms of the senses but you can almost "see" the struggle because it contrasts so much to this other state of pure calm and contentment that you can now access.

And because you can now access it (through staying on the path) it becomes a sort of refuge and eventually feels like source of strength.

And through having that I started asking myself why not just choose to be compassionate and kind? Why let the mind stress itself out over truly meaningless things when we now know how to calm it down and be content? Why protect the model of the world we've built up when it is so obviously limiting the depth of life that we can access and share?

Not that any of this is easy, and its definitely a journey but it's one worth going down.

[roenxi]

Possibly it is a good time to reflect on the following puzzler:

There are people you know who have achieved a jhana but don't talk about it. What are they saying?

[dnissley]

Is the implication that those who aren't talking about it are a set of people for whom experiencing jhana was net neutral/negative for the people around them?

[roenxi]

The implication is that people just don't spend much time talking about jhanas at all.

There are ~3,000 living billionaires. People talk about them continuously. Their actions are studied, their motives are studied, their contribution to society continuously assessed. The top few are household names.

There are countless living people who achieve jhanas. The topic comes up in conversation basically never. I know someone who I'd confidently say has gotten there. It hasn't yet inspired them to do anything new and they generally don't bring it up in conversation with people since it leads to a lot of woo and disagreement.

[lewispollard]

Actions speak louder than words.