[bamboozled]

Humans spend their lifetimes training their brain

I don't think this is true personally, ideally as children, we spend out time having fun and learning about the world is a side effect. This borg like thinking applied to intelligence because we have LLMs is unusual to me.

I learned surfing through play and enjoyment, not through training like a robot.

We can train for something with intention, but I think that is mostly a waste of energy, albeit necessary on occasion.

[Jensson]

> we spend out time having fun and learning about the world is a side effect

What do you think "play" is? Animals play to learn about themselves and the world, you see most intelligent animals play as kids with the play being a simplification of what they do as adults. Human kids similarly play fight, play build things, play cook food, play take care of babies etc, it is all to make you ready for an adult life.

Playing is fun since playing helps us learn, otherwise we wouldn't evolve to play, we would evolve to be like ants that just work all day long if that was more efficient. So the humans who played around beat those who worked their ass off, otherwise we would all be hard workers.

[bamboozled]

But I just play because it's fun, I roll dice for fun, are you trying to tell me all this is a secret front for "training" ?

[Jensson]

Fun is your brain rewarding you for something it thinks is practice on a useful skill. You get bored once you mastered it enough.

Some people continue playing a game even when it stops being fun, they are addicted to the reward mechanism in the game, and now the brain thinks that playing the game is a good way to work and provide for itself. I don't call that "play", its work, just not productive work.

Why is dice fun? Because your brain wants to map the pattern of the dice, trying to figure out how to get good rolls. You see that in most dice players, they develop a lot of superstition about what is good and bad dice, or how they always roll bad in critical moments etc. I'd assume that is from nature where you try to figure out what is a good nut to crack or where to find prey etc, basically a way to figure out useful patterns from random events.

[bamboozled]

So when I look at a sunset and enjoy that, I think it's fun to chase sunsets, my "brain" is telling me it's fun because I'm learning a new skill and receiving a dopamine reward for looking at the sunset and feeling good about it?

[Jensson]

Looking at a sunset isn't a game you play, kids don't go and play "look at the sunset", I feel like you are grasping at straws.

Why would you feel calm and comfortable from a sunset? Probably to get you sleepy so you go find a place to sleep since there isn't much useful to do at night. That would be unrelated to play.

Anyway, most of our feelings comes from nature, we didn't evolve to be faulty, we evolved to do things efficiently, play is a part of efficiency. If it isn't for learning you would have to explain what it is more likely to be for. When kittens play and chase things or play fight with each other, do you think they are just wasting energy for no reason? No, they sharpen their senses and learn to hunt and fight.

[bamboozled]

I never said kids play like that. I do.

As an adult, I find it fun and enjoyable to seek out sunsets I find the colors beautiful. I readily hike mountains just to enjoy a sunset. I watch a sunset and then go party till 3 am, so maybe it's got to do with finding a nice place to sleep, or maybe it's just nice that we have the ability to appreciate phenomenon without having to apply some rigorous concept to it. I'd fly 2/3 of the way around the world to watch a total eclipse.

Personally I think you might be clasping at straws trying to equate every pleasant experience to some type of reward function.

I'd go as far as saying if we worked this simply and predictably, then our lives would be much easier. We'd all be exercising for that dopamine hit, we'd all be going to bed early after a nice sunset, but we dont.

[gnramires]

It's probably not something you secretly wish when playing, and perhaps for the best (that you don't have fun and enjoy things always with an ulterior motive, except enjoying the experiences). I guess he's saying in the sense of the natural function of play, and we playing is mostly a consequence of the natural function. It's also very much true that we learn a lot, perhaps a significant chunk of what we learn is through play[1], so it's also undeniable that we do learn from play, even if humans have this great gift -- we are able to understand the nature of things (such as play) and choose to do them just for the sake of experiences, fun, joy, happiness, etc..

Which we should (finally :) ) recognize to be the source of all meaning.

We still should learn (and do practical stuff in general) because it supports our inner lives, including building technology, producing things (buildings, infrastructure) that support us and indeed enables our (inner) lives.

[1] Also of note humans, unlike LLMs, can learn all the time, we don't have a hard "training phase". It's true brain plasticity decays, and it becomes harder to learn as we age, but we can still learn more or less quickly at any age. This is why dedicating childhood to learning (as well as play) is natural.

[bamboozled]

I'm conscious I have to types of play though, I'm fully conscious sometimes play can be about learning and training, it's why I ski more difficult terrain than I'm comfortable with, but then I might go eat a massive bowl of pasta and have a glass or three of wine. On an intellectual level, I know there are healthy more rewarding things to eat. I know wine isn't great for me at those quantities. But I consciously make the choice to do it because it's fun.

[Jensson]

I don't think that many calls indulging in food or bodily needs "play". Those are just core rewards, play is an active activity that is fun without being directly related to your survival, like eating is.

[Hasu]

Eating ice cream instead of stale bread is absolutely play, just like running around on a soccer field is play even though running is a survival skill.

[gnramires]

Yes, although I say, if you can make your play healthy as well as fun, might as well :)

[james-bcn]

Yes, evolution makes play fun, but it's really learning, in the same that that evolution has made sweet and fatty things extra tasty, because they are full of energy.

[bamboozled]

This is “common sense” but knowing all we know about food and calories, we still eat the donut…

[nkrisc]

Jokes on you. Every time you played ball you were secretly learning about ballistic trajectories and estimating velocities using visual cues such as apparent angular size and parallax.

[grugagag]

The brain uses heuristics for that

[Jensson]

Heuristics that you practice and finetune via play, for example by throwing and catching balls.

[nkrisc]

Being a father to two young kids, I can confidently say we aren’t born with those heuristics already tuned.

[glenstein]

>we spend out time having fun and learning about the world is a side effect

I think the part of this that resonates as most true to me is how this reframes learning in a way that tracks truth more closely. It's not all the time, 100% of the time, it's in fits and starts, its opportunistic, and there are long intervals that are not active learning.

But the big part where I would phrase things differently is in the insistence that play in and of itself is not a form of learning. It certainly is, or certainly can be, and while you're right that it's something other than Borg-like accumulation I think there's still learning happening there.

[bamboozled]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that learning isn't part of play, I just don't believe the end goal of life is to "train". I think if you're an AI researcher it would make sense that life is about training. However I think it's just fashion.

I always think if we could built an AGI, it would probably enjoy some form of play too. It would need to invent some level of excitement, else it would just be a machine with no ambition, no inspiration.

[pessimizer]

That's like saying that you eat because it tastes good.